Hello everyone! I just registered several seconds ago because I've been having a problem with a novelette I'm working on. My story is approximately 13, 600 words in length. It is about a protagonist who enters a community while traveling. There is a serious problem that this community is facing, and the protagonist becomes involved. However, the protagonist is utterly ignorant of the situation at first. He encounters a member of the community who explains the problem to him in a dialogue that goes on for almost 2000 words. There is a substantial amount of character development involved in this scene and the story would seem illogical and incomplete if the protag does not get this information. I have him encounter a small consequence of the problem just before he enters the community that piques his curiosity, but a more detailed encounter with the problem that shows exactly what is happening would not work at this point. Is roughly 15 percent of the entire story too much space for a dialogue scene? It reads fine to me, but I'm planning to submit it to a magazine, and I have visions of the slush readers dismissing the story when they reach that part. I would really appreciate any thoughts on this you might have!
This does sound problematic. It's theoretically possible that it might work, but, yeah, problematic. Can you give us any more information? I assume that you're not comfortable posting the whole thing to the review room? Can you break any of the information out into summary? A sample of pushing a presumably smaller amount of information into summary: I said, "Why can't you just keep replanting the potatoes again?" He explained. Then he explained again. Diagrams were involved, and books, and exasperation on both our parts. I admit that at one point, I shouted. I've never liked being condescended to by academics. My understanding, in the end, was that potatoes carry disease from generation to generation, becoming less and less productive every time. The only solution was to reboot them (he really didn't like my use of the term "reboot", but after the third round of explanations I just didn't care) by doing fancy things in a fancy lab. "No. No. Stop," I said, waving both hands. "No more. I don't need to hear again about the meristem and the tweezers. You need a lab, and sanitary glassware, right?" "And a few other things," he said. "I'll make you a list." "You do that." Can you break up the information into more than one scene? Do they do anything in the explanatory scene? Could they? Are you positive that you need absolutely all of the information?
Ha ha, @ChickenFreak ! As usual, a pertinent, but smile-worthy original example. (Especially as my gardener husband does love to go on and on about the clinical approach to growing potatoes!) Chicken is right. You can summarise dialogue. Use phrases like: he told me, apparently, I was horrified to learn that, I wondered why, etc. If you break it up with an occasional direct quotation (preferably of a particular important point), and perhaps a response from the person who is listening, the process will be painless. You can certainly write out the entire stretch of dialogue, however, if the character listening is hearing a tale or facts for the first time. We can share their surprise, delight, disgust or interest as issues unfold. Just make sure you give the speaker some personality and the hearer something to say as well—on occasion—so your 'dialogue' isn't just an expository monologue. What is usually not recommended is conveying information that the characters already know via dialogue. "As you know, Mary, he graduated from high school in June of this year."
Thank you both for replying so quickly! I may post that scene in the review room in the near future. I just joined, so I am not too familiar with the setup here. I do know I have to review other members' stories first. Actually, I do have a certain amount of summary narrative in that problem section. Most of the information revealed in the dialogue wouldn't be suited to summation, though I may be wrong. All of it is pretty essential, as certain things they discuss come to light later and would be meaningless if not discussed further. Another problem with summarizing the conversation is that I am not writing the story in first person. I thought if I used too much summation in a third person subjective narrative, it would ring the readers' "Show, don't tell" alarms. Not much extraneous activity is occurring during the scene. The two characters are sitting in the home of the person doing the exposition. At one point, the protagonist examines some equipment the other character shows him that is essential to the plot and definitely needs explanation. There is also a bit of drinking and eating, and some minor conflict early in the scene with a friend of the second character.
I'm all curious to see it. I'm thinking, "Of course you can summarize! Of course you don't need it all!" But I can't know unless I see it. Remember that mystery and surprises can be OK. Or you can tuck information in here and there. This made me check to see what my example looks like in third person. I'm still good with it; I miss the "must admit", but I think with a little more thought I could get that vibe back in there. Jim said, "Why can't you just keep replanting the potatoes again?" Fred explained. Then he explained again. Diagrams were involved, and books, and mutual exasperation. At one point, Jim shouted. He'd never liked being condescended to by academics. Jim's understanding, in the end, was that potatoes carry disease from generation to generation, becoming less and less productive every time. The only solution was to reboot them (Fred objected, vehemently, to Jim's use of the term "reboot", but after the third round of explanations Jim just didn't care.) by doing fancy things in a fancy lab. "No. No. Stop," Jim said, waving both hands. "No more. I don't need to hear again about the meristem and the tweezers. You need a lab, and sanitary glassware, right?" "And a few other things," Fred said. "I'll make you a list." "You do that."
I think the fact that you're asking shows you that, yes, it's a problem. If it's fine, you wouldn't be having doubts. And no, 2000 words out of a pretty short piece at 13k is not really ok, in my opinion. It doesn't mean the scene isn't good - but it does mean it may be ineffective. Is there any reason why you can't show the problem to the readers instead? Are you sure where you started the story is where the story should indeed start? If there's this much back story that needs communicating before the story can even make sense, then I'd argue you are starting too late into the story. That "back story" is clearly not just back story - it's an important point to the progress of the plot - so why is it relegated to back story? To add: why can't the protag discover the problem as he investigates, rather than being told?
I think that can certainly be done via dialogue, as long as the personalities of both the 'teller' and the listener are kept intact. Let the listener have reactions (either with dialogue, or, better yet, internal thoughts and feelings.) This doesn't matter whether it's first or third person, by the way. Just keep within the POV. If the POV character is the listener, then they will be reacting to what they hear. (Internally and/or externally.) On the other hand, if the POV character is telling the other character the information, then the teller will be aware of the reactions the listener is having via facial expressions, body language, and what they might say or ask. The POV 'teller' might also have an agenda ...a private reason why they are giving out this information, or a reaction they are hoping for. So make us aware of this in an ongoing way.
@Book Mark, since you are just 13K words into the story, I presume you are not finished and this is a first draft. Some exposition in the first draft is for you, the writer, and will not wind up being seen by the reader. That exposition, whether by dialogue or narrative, focuses YOUR mind on what the problem is and lets you go on to tell the story. I call it 'scaffolding" because that is what it is, temporary structures put in place to hold things together while the rest is being built. When you are done, you will either remove and discard the scaffolding if it is no longer needed, or polish it and make it a permanent part of the story if it serves a purpose. So at this point, don't worry about it, just write on. By the way, I had to look up the definition of expositional dialogue, since I was critiqued for it by the one agent who requested my manuscript "Two people talking about something they would never talk about, because they both know it, for the the benefit of the reader." For example, a brother and sister talking about their mother. "Yes, you know, she died in 1996." When I saw that I knew exactly which chapter she was talking about, one of my very earliest, and went back to fix it up with a major rewrite.
As I said, when I read it, the story flows well and the exposition is not a problem. It is not presented as a character-less prologue or an info-dump and there is no "As you know, John, your mother passed away in 1996" dialogue going on. Everything feels flowing and natural to me and not obviously forced exposition. To me, it's got vitality and character development and an entertaining exchange of conversation. However, when reading articles written by slush readers about what they look for, I am getting the impression that this amount would be considered a drawback according to the guidelines they work by, regardless of content. As far as letting the protagonist discover the problem as he investigates, he is really reliant on the second character to have the capability to investigate beyond merely dealing with the surface manifestations of the problem. The secondary character has the means of accessing the problem, but not the skills to deal with it. I can't post the excerpt from the story yet as I need to be a member for 2 weeks and make 20 posts first, but a summary of the story would go as follows: Protag encounters a dying man on the road who tells him several tidbits of information before expiring. Protag, curious and upset over the death, goes to dying man's community, and is greeted with hostility. Protag meets relative of dying man, is told the underlying reasons for the execution of the man and given details of a plan to stop the entire problem and shown a special piece of equipment necessary to do the job. The protag's skills are necessary to the success of the plan. He fills a void left by the execution of the secondary character's relative. A tertiary allied character is introduced with whom there is some conflict. Protag and secondary character make a short reconnaissance. The three characters together then have a short preparation scene. This brings us to 5200 words. The remaining 8450 words are more or less straight action sequences as the problem is dealt with. I would like to condense the first 5200 words a little, without losing the characterization and vital information presented in the conversation sequence. I don't think beginning earlier in the backstory would be helpful, as my protagonist would have no reason to be there, and the problem began decades earlier. The story is essentially a condensed variant of one of those 'Magnificent Seven' or 'Road Warrior' adventures when an experienced fighting man or group of men aids a community against an oppressor. In my story, rather than being deliberately sought out, the protagonist comes across this situation by accident while traveling. However, rather than simply "Bandits are extorting us. Help us get rid of them." there are unique details about the oppressors and their base of operations that would logically be shared by anyone attempting to recruit assistance against them.
@Book Mark i love stories like this, and I think knight errant tails are still popular. Are you a fan of Jack Reacher or any other similar stories? If your story telling style is different from main stream stories you recently like and read, is it like another type of book? If not, are you taking a chance for an artistic reason?
It honestly sounds like we can't help further without seeing the piece. Update us when your requirements are met and you have posted it in the Workshop and we can give better feedback then it sounds like a slow mystery type of story to me. Dialogue for exposition doesn't have to be bad. It also depends on what type of magazine you are submitting to, what's their style? Because it could be perfect and still be rejected if it's not their style. If you are taking more of a gamble at artistic license, you could also think of magazines that may be interested precisely because itsimkre unique. Did you write this piece esp for this magazine, or did you find it after the piece was complete?
I certainly can't see any problems with this, just from your description of what you've done. However, we will need to see it in order to make an actual judgement. And even better yet ...see it in context as written into the whole story. I'd just leave this issue for now and carry on. (Presumably this situation won't keep cropping up as your story unfolds, so you won't be creating excessive expository dialogue over and over.) Once you have finished, edit as best as you can, then give it to a few beta readers for feedback. You might be worrying unnecessarily. Feedback might also be helpful in that, if this IS a problem, your betas might have a few ideas about how to sort your particular issues within the context of your story. These are the kinds of writing problems that are usually very easily solved.
@John Calligan I've read a couple of Jack Reachers a long time ago. I've always been a fan of this kind of story, especially as done in 60s and 70s movies such as The Magnificent Seven, The Professionals, etc. My protagonist is a world-weary adventurer in whom I have tried to create a late-medieval/fantasy version of the sort of characters played by actors like James Coburn and Lee Marvin. The story is a blend of traditional Sword & Sorcery with modern Grimdark and New Weird elements. The basic plot might be an old one, but I am hoping I have brought a few new twists to the theme with my antagonists and the resolution to the problem they present. I have written a few other stories about this character, but I haven't submitted any of them. My avatar is part of a picture of the character I created using Gimp in case I decide to self-publish a collection down the road. BTW, I had a quick look at your Winoc stories and as soon as I can I am going to read them. Those look like my kind of stories! @Mckk I'll post it as soon as I can. It feels a little like a mystery at first, but the last two thirds are pure action. BTW, posting a story for critique here won't have any effect on first publishing rights, will it? I started the story with no particular market in mind other than an eventual self-published collection, but after looking around I kind of thought it might be interesting to the people at F&SF. They publish a pretty broad spectrum of speculative fiction. My story might not be as cerebral as some of the stories they print, though. At heart, it's a fantasy adventure. @jannert Thank you! That's very encouraging! Once that exposition is out of the way, the rest of the story is quite fast paced. I'll post some as soon as I have the privileges.
Again, it's not really going to give us an accurate picture of how this device works, if we only get a snippet of the total story. What you're asking is, basically, is your expository dialogue 'too much?' We won't know if that's the case until we read it in context. If I were you, I would just get on with writing, and worry less about our reactions to an excerpt from an incomplete story. Your issue isn't about style, which could be worked on in the Workshop. Instead, it's about story flow. Story flow can't really be assessed from just an excerpt. If readers of your full novel become engaged with your character(s) and intrigued by the situation, prior to this scene, I don't see any reason why expository dialogue can't have a place in your story. After all, if you've built up the intrigue and suspense, folks will be as keen as your main character, to find out the background of these events. If a character is 'telling' another character what happened, with plenty of personality thrown in, I see no reason why this storytelling device should be a problem at all. However, if you dump the exerpted passage on us, as forum critique-givers, you might get unhelpful reactions from us. That passage alone is all we'll have to work with so the passage WILL get picked to death. However, if we were just reading it as part of the story, it's very likely that it would fit right in. You won't know if it works until you give your whole story to a couple of beta readers, who can read the whole thing and give feedback. Do what you want, of course. But I wouldn't post that passage for that kind of critique. Just keep writing.
Generally speaking I think it's a matter of style. Umberto Ecco's Focault's Pendulum has some crazy exposition (so does Don Quixote and lots of other works). I myself have lately taken to the more modern approach of "less is more." Honestly, even @Chickenfreaks example with the potatoes felt a little too expository for my own current tastes. If you do it right, a lot of information can be gleaned from "in between the lines" a la Hemingway. It's going to depend on the rest of your text.
It shouldn't affect first publishing rights because I believe only members can view the Workshop in the first place. In other words, it's protected behind a password and not available in the public domain. If it's a slow, plodding mystery at the beginning and then suddenly it ends with all action, just be aware of pacing issues and reader expectations. Eg. You may have attracted the kind of reader who likes a good, slow read and who may enjoy action less, making the ending less satisfying for them. Can't say for sure without reading it - as Janet says, you ultimately need beta readers who can critique within the context of your story look forward to seeing part of it in the Workshop!
@Book Mark yeah, let me know what you think of Winoc. It was fun to write. I was just going to point out one other tool for reducing exposition. Could you add a second POV character who lives through it, then when the characters meet, the narrator could say, “he told him everything: the this, that, and the other thing.” You might end up with a baton pass you don’t like, so you might still start with the other main character and weave a tale about how they meet so we have sympathy for the knight right away. idk, there are a lot of ways of going about it, but if you just write the dialog the way you see it now, and readers like it, it’s fine.
