Yeah, bang out what you can and then get feedback. If you get to a point where you think your world might be too complex (or to complex for one book), you may choose to edit out pieces of the worldbuilding that you don't feel you can adequately describe. We all have to "kill our darlings" in revision - I know I'm going to have to make some uncomfortable cuts to my own manuscript when I finish, but it's for the greater good. On the specific caste system you described, there actually is a good parallel in the traditional Indian/Hindu caste systm. Most westerners think of that system as having five castes (Brahmins/Priests, Kshatriyas/Warriors, Vaishyas/Merchants, Shudras/Peasants, and Dalits/Untouchables). The reality of that system is actually quite different. There are indeed four "Varnas" (Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras - Dalits are outside the system entirely). However, each Varna can be subdivided into a series of "Jatis" - sometimes translated as clans - each associated with a specific occupation. There are only four varna but there are thousands of jati, and honestly in some ways it is the jati more than the varna that may determine how a person lives from day to day. Compared to that system, yours actually isn't all that complex - so people will be able to get it. Just think of your races as varnas and your subdivisions as jati. (DISCLAIMER: I'm sure this is simplistic, I'm going off my college Indian History class and a review of Wikipedia - anyone reading who can add more detail or correct me, go right ahead)
I assure you that I've made it simple here for the purposes of being relatively understood and I do agree that I should just be simple as needed rather than overly explanatory. The plot would not advance if I had to explain everything. While it sounds like I have this big huge pile of worldbuilding notes and nothing else, it is quite the opposite.
Ya know, I use the real world as a base when I world build, but I add a few tweaks. Like How the Gods fought a long war over the living things in the verse and only one was left standing. The Dead Gods, as they are called, now fight and try to rise again to godhood at the cost of the human race and some other races.
I think that creating a great world,with deep history,can make the reader want to become a part of it,and that is one of the greatest feelings in book reading,so you should always take your time in creating a perfect fantasy world.
If you have multiple main characters who are caught in a single whirlwind of a plot world building is easy. I personally take the grrmartin approach on things in that regard.
For any speculative universe, establish consistent magic/tech mechanics and think about how that might apply to society (agriculture, military, socioeconomics, etc.). That will help you develop a believable culture and history, as well as a multi-dimensional plot.
I have dropped little notes all over this forum and various ways, but the most troublesome matter has always been the philosophical and spiritual nature of the work instead of the political or socioeconomics of the situations. Still that this has lead to thousands of new keywords, ideas and other topics that a reader is going to be very unfamiliar with - it is not just names or places which I was really speaking about. To give a relatively simple illustrative example: Tein have yearly estrous cycles and society was built up around their biology, but their behavior and social customs exhibit great complexity. It colors their world and defines much of their thought while inverting some of the gender roles. The relevance of it goes beyond skin-deep when a reader has to confront certain "fun" facts about daily life. Normal "human relationships" do not allow the youngest of three sisters to be both a sister, aunt, grand-aunt all at once to her other sisters, but this is exceedingly common in Tein society. Think about it and cringe like my beta reader did - but also note they are all the same age and will almost certainly share a single mate when they come of age. The society is rigid and strong with a lot of interesting aspects that seem purely insane to most readers at first, but it is part of the foundation of life in this world.
Politics and culture directly influence each other. Throw transhumanism into the mix, and politics will affect biology. The general philosophical, spiritual, ethical, etc. ideologies of a socialist society will vary greatly from a technocratic society. Having these political/cultural factors affect and conflict with that of neighboring societies will help create a complex and immersive world. Otherwise, it'd just feel like trivia in a vacuum. If you're writing fantasy, think of the magic mechanics as alternative technologies. Introduce ideas about things such as the ethics of magic control (gun control), sentient stone golems (Artifical Intelligence), or whatever magic mechanics you choose to develop.
Did not mean to sound as if I was dismissing the importance of either, just stating that the dialectrics on spirituality and philosophy have my focus since the general notion of "politics" is completely otherworldly in the setting.
I think you should fill a notebook (or ten) with everything you know about the world you've built. Create a timeline of events throughout the world's history, write out family trees, note the cultural differences between each of your societies, draw out styles of clothing, create an actual map and research which climates would be the most plausible in certain areas, outline the different systems of government--of money--of magic--of education--of nobility. Draw out tools, weapons, vehicles, equipment, flora and fauna; make notes as needed next to all of these. Write as much as you need to, then write your story like the reader has just read everything in your notebook. That way you focus less on the descriptions and more on how hopeless the character feels when he has to work all night long, milking the last of the sapreeds before the first frost hits--right in the middle of Eclipsing season, too. And for what? He's only making a halfmark per ounce off of them, anyway. At this rate, he'll be indebted to the Arespur until the next rebellion... A cheesy example, but you get the idea.
Not sure if you are fooling or following me around because the history is intricate and set, yes all the family trees are complete, the cultural aspects down to specific patterning and textile fashions are done. Climates, government, religion, philosophy and technology is intricate though covered. Flora, fauna and all the equipment including differences in architectural style and movements are known well-enough that identification of the age and even the builder can be ascertained by an astute reader. All of this is why the thread was created in the first place because I was encountering situations with such frequency that it became impossible to unravel or really explain to someone picking up any excerpt. And I know I have myself to blame, but explaining everything irritates me. Though on the other hand piecing together what a certain word can be shattering to a reader's perceptions of characters and action....
As a reader I would always prefer to learn the detail through the characters. As the character learns about the world so does the reader - this can help the reader invest in the character also. If there are aspects of the world that are general knowledge that the character would know already this can be incorporated into the narrative e.g. a particular style of clothing or hairstyle could be described as "traditional" which would indicate this is common knowledge and identifies the character as belonging to a certain group of people. You can describe certain behaviours without the detail of the cause of those behaviours as the character encounters them. then as the character learns more about those behaviours the cause of those behaviours can be revealed, be they social, cultural or racial. This can add a certain mystery which can draw the reader in and intice him/her to read on in order to learn more about the mystery.
"Prefer to learn..." describes the ideal, but the "general knowledge" of even minor characters in the setting far exceed what any reader would probably be comfortable with. Though I will bite and give a single short description from a character's arrival in a council meeting. "Her hair was twice parted with six bangs, each bang was threaded with a single red bead on the terminus. Her Baelian miter was adorned with three blue stars and three suns, but a single blackish-brown fingerprint underneath signified her authority - Eia's personal favor. As expected of a noblewoman of three hundred battles, her stalwart gaze saw through everyone and to realms beyond, but her soft face and glowing cheeks revealed her pregnancy to the untrained eye. Such desperation! Has the Night Jaguar not earned her rest? The dire situation is fast becoming a calamity..." This short description is typical of the introductions of different parts of the story, focusing on position and history of the character instead of their physical features unless something is of immense importance. From this description a reader should know the person before their honorative name is given. In not so many words, the first line says she is a top-ranking matriarch of the Eian line (six bangs) and six daughters (signified by the red beads). To make it clear, the Baelian miter dispels all doubt by placing her in the unified pureblood house and showing that she is a sanctioned agent of Eia. Wrapping it up with her extensive military service, it is the fact that she is pregnant which shocks the viewing character. Tein have very defined estrous cycles and she is about to give birth, but has made a very dangerous journey and come far from home to act as a political liaison on behalf an immortal ancestor. Though I am being short with explanations here, but that little passage has a few really disturbing underpinnings that a versed reader should identify. I should put together an artbook or something since it has bugged me for weeks now...
Let it go, and explain it as you go, it will come out naturally. Focus on "line of sight" of the character, and explain the biggest things first, then later on the more complex minutia. You have a whole book to explain it, you don't need to do it immediately. Just use some common sense and dont panic
Reading your posts I feel that you are letting your worries about 'the reader not getting it' get in the way of the obvious. It's your baby, you know all of the world/universe's ways and there's this whole other bunch that do to, your characters. They live in this wonderful place you've created. To them the things you are worrying about are ordinary. You need to write it from their world view and not draw attention to the strangeness. They will fill in the blanks in dialogue, action and thought. And providing those blanks are simple and easily assimilated, the reader will pick it up as they go along. At the beginning of LotR or Game of Thrones, or Ringworld, or Startide Rising, no reader has a grasp of the world they're set in. And each of those stories avoids big info dumps etc. The stuff comes via the characters and actions. Eventually the reader's minds are blown. Feel positive and and write.
The reason for my concern is well-founded because the notion of just key character relationships being too entwined for most readers to comprehend. Forget the differences in species, culture and the host of new terminology thrust upon a reader - it is the prominent characters which get forgotten and confused... Just taking a sheet of paper I wrote the name of the main POV (Ibiki) and the antagonist (Iebi) in two boxes on opposite sides. The next "ring" is the characters immediately connected to them and Ibiki ended up with 26 key boxes and Iebi had 46. This is for direct close relationships upon which the action follows and bases itself off of - this is not even "friends/sidekicks" and such. And before you ask - yes... every single one is very important and mentioned very frequently. Thrust into this is the fact that characters are not of the same species, morality, standing, age, or anything. The bridge between the two are riddled with other highly influential persons that are also constantly advised and acting out of different motivations. Most of these are key characters which bridge the gaps between the two and many of these relationships are decades old - best friends seldom need words or to explain themselves. Single sentences can be read in a multitude of ways and the multiple interpretations and reasons behind them are one of the facets of the culture. The difference between a child and an adult in Ibikian society is the ability to pick up on multiple interpretations to singular sentences and come to the right conclusion and to respond in such a way that affirms the meanings without explicit statement. Topics of personal feelings, sexuality, warfare and illness are touchy subjects and can only be discussion by equals in status or rank. Ghesela to Ibiki: "She (Iebi) has everything in this world, except time." A reader without a full understanding of the two's history will likely gleam from context that Iebi is dying of old age. A more astute reader will understand Ghesela thinks of herself on the level of a divinity. Understanding more of the clues about the relationship between the three will reveal that Ghesela is asking Ibiki to do a forbidden act and make their enemy immortal. A complete understanding will also realize that Ghesela has abandoned her hatred of Ibiki for doing the same to her and is asking her lover to save an enemy, defy the Godspact and risk the fate of the world so that Ghesela can live with her beloved Iebi. None of this is really shown, implied or hinted at directly - but it can all be inferred from knowing how high-ranking people speak to one another in the setting. Though these are key problems I have in explaining the setting. Much more is implied then ever spoken - multiple interpretations is a necessity to understand the characters in the first place.
This is a very good question and one I'm afraid I can't help you with. I can tell you that when a story starts off by pure description, I lose interest. I need an event or action to get me directly into the story, and only then will descriptive details even matter. When you're building an entirely new world with little to relate to, I would say you should 'info-dump' little by little to not overwhelm your reader. Start off but what is necessary to know (because the following events will include these details) and leave out the rest. When you get to a part of your story where more info is required to understand the events, introduce them then. That's really the only thing I can think of Wish I could be more helpful. There are plenty of books and info on the internet that could help you with that though. I would do an internet search as well.
This reminds me of Hemingway's Iceberg Method. I would recommend you read a bit into that, it could help you a great deal.
These nuances can be explained to the reader in describing the characters reactions to them without having to be verbalised through dialogue. How does the character react? What are his thoughts on what has been said? How does the character interpret the words? The reader doesn't have to know all the intricacies of your world to be able to understand reactions.
Also I think you are doing your readers a disservice by assuming the relationships are too complex to comprehend. As an avid reader myself it would be a little insulting for an author to assume I'm not intelligent enough to understand complex relationships. I know I'm new to this but the way I see it, your job as a writer is to get your story and the world it occupies onto the page in such a way that the reader is immersed in it and learns about the world through the narrative. Take Game of Thrones as an example of multiple characters with complex relationships - there is a whole history here that is alluded to throughout the narrative and as the reader follows the story it opens up gradually. The complex relationships and social structures are described through the characters interactions with each other with out it being an info dump. A good writer should be able to get this across without having to condescend to the reader. Apologies if this seems harsh but I do think you are underestimating the level of intelligence and comprehension of the fantasy readership in general. No offence intended
What Karldots92 said. It's our jobs as writers/authors to make sure the readers understand what's on the page. I totally accept that you've created a difficult culture, but if you start off small and build and the story's engrossing, the reader will come along for the journey. If you've already started this and have a beginning, perhaps, if you want to, you could share it on these boards. If you have already, my apologies, just point me at the thread.
To give you a simple history, this thread began when I was trying to separate one part out and to make a short little self-contained point of entry for readers. This came after the emotional devastation I suffered when dealing (and then trying to edit) a 120,000 word portion that better known as "Chapter 4". By the time chapter 8 closed out the story had become soul-crushing. My beta reader loved bleak stuff... but he became so furious that he had an asthma attack. By this point I was having nightmares which were basically fed into the madness. A few words will not suffice, but even thinking about it makes me queasy. To give a direct answer: The total work is over half a million words and readers are not given any explanations and are left to work out the connections, real meanings and history. While culture shock is an issue, the dialogue and actions have layered meanings that conceal intentions, requests and essentially the nature of the world. The culture places value on mental ability and defines status not by physical development or sexual maturity - but this veil acuity. A reader will only become aware of this by recognizing and categorizing syntactical differences. Furthermore, certain assertions also challenge the reader's conceptions or outright attack them by the apparent impossibility of situations. When cornered with their faltering conceptions, the reader cannot ride it off as an authorial "mistake" because looking back reveals the appropriate reading - almost instantly. When these "click" it can reshape the world view the reader has - and it can be done frequently. Many of these relate to philosophy, politics and trickle down to even basic assertions about sexuality. The latter subject has been relatively untested since my beta reader flipped out on me, but a command of philosophy is needed to follow general high-level conversations. Readers are not handheld through these matters and can come away with gross misunderstandings if they cannot discern what is actually going on. And with that... @karldots92 it comes full circle, because I cannot imagine a reader getting past some of it without having studied Kant or at least Hegel's refutations (specifically Hegel's Phenomenology of the Spirit). The reason is simple - the world is not something that was meticulously set up in advance - it was essentially told to me by the main characters and experienced via lucid dreaming. The text can be seen more as a philosophical novel full of life that is unabashed and finds value in the meaningless and mundane things which dominate life. The complex world is an embodiment that reflects the state of being and that is why explaining, piecemeal or otherwise, is impossible. P.S. - A failed attempt to resolve one question can be seen in the Pandeism and metempsychosis thread. This is without in-universe terminology. My frustration peaked around this response. And yes...the referenced piece was a bit more difficult then usual, but is currently in because it explains essentially everything about the antagonist's viewpoint. That is pretty rare for 700 words.
The original question on this thread is how much is too much when it comes to worldbuilding and bringing it across to the reader but your question needs to be qualified - how much is too much for a fantasy novel targeted for the general readership. Based on this thread and the other thread you linked on here I am getting a sense that you are writing more of a philosophical work based in a fictional universe than a fantasy novel driven by character and plot. The thing you probably need to ask yourself first is why am I writing this work, secondly who do I want to read this work. Then you will get a sense of how much info needs to be put into it. On a personal level I read fantasy as a from of escapism - If the novel is too existential it loses its appeal. I have no doubt that there are readers out there who would love the complexity and intricacies of your work but - if I'm reading your responses correctly - it is unlikely to appeal to a mass audience. That is not to say that they wouldn't understand it - its just that most people read fantasy for the action and character development and the worldbuilding is a secondary consideration. Personally I love epic novels where there is a complex social structure and history that drives characters motivations but really only when it is weaved into the plot rather than as a theme in and of itself. Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time is a perfect example of multicultural world with a long history which drives the motivations of the characters but he doesn't sacrifice the action and plot of the story to explain the detail of what drives the characters and their philosophies - they are explained through the stories as the characters learn more about the world and by inserting various points of view. So I guess what I'm saying is figure out who your audience is and adapt your work accordingly
To add to the points above. If your ms is half a million words long we're in trouble. I'm going to assume that you know that no publisher is going to accept an ms that long and that you are planning to turn it into several books in a series. Even readers won't stomach anything that long; be they philosophy lovers or general fantasy readers. I agree with Karldots92 that there appears to be some conflicting information on the nature of your work. That said there's nothing wrong with a fantasy that incorporates philosophy, it just has to be accessible to the reader. Good luck with it. I'm going to take a look at the other thread now.
