Gay Or Not Gay?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by AmyWriter, Dec 22, 2015.

  1. I Am Vague

    I Am Vague Active Member

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    Gay Tony. LOL that's a funny coincidence.

    Anyway, I don't think sexual preference should be something that really defines someone. If a big part of the story is hinged to it, or a conflict springs out of it like you said it might, then by all means do whatever you feel makes the story come together. If he's old (or young, I guess) enough to have an imaginary friend, he's still growing up. That means trying to figure things out, you know. I mean, you could even go another route and Surprise! He discovers he's straight in the end and has to somehow tell his boyfriend. That would fuck with people.

    As for the age, that seems completely realistic to me. I can't speak for everybody's connections, so whatever these two developed could totally happen. It's not abnormal to see an age gap like that in many relationships. I'd have to assume it'd be even more common if you were gay because they're a minority and many don't even come out.

    All in all, I would try and center the theme around growing up and trying to find an identity.
     
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  2. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    If you have a boyfriend and are "physically intimate" you probably know. There's far more incentive to think you're straight. Heteronormativity is a real thing. Until I realised it was so automatic to be straight that I tried to ask out girls. But I'd never actually felt attracted to them. And I think it ould be difficult to explain the story choice of a character who thinks they're gay and then realises otherwise. What does that say? Maybe if the character's home life is fucked-up in ways I can imagine some interesting metaphor arising. But the author is worried about being controversial; depicting it in any positive way would garner the bigots fury. So why make that change when it has no relevance to the concerns?
     
  3. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    What's the point of making a coming out as straight story in this case? That's more of a comedy device. Honestly why should you ever avoid depicting homosexuality? Especially since that wouldn't really be avoiding it. The author was asking about controversy.
     
  4. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Oops. I responded twice. Dn, I thought the first one didn't post.
     
  5. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    The label would be used, probably by him, and especially by someone else. The label exists to name a category, not to simplify it or emphasise it. Should we talk about tomatoes without acknowledging their fruit? Or oxygen as it it isn't a gas? Why are people so afraid of just accepting fact and terminology? Why should anyone want to make things more vague than they are? Complexity and fluidity do not remove the use of labels, far from it, most labels describe complex and/or fluid things. That's the universe mate. Gah, people annoy me so much with this rubbish. Fucking hell.
    Sorry, rant over. -A complexist(believes the universe is more complicated than anything else it is).
     
  6. GoldenFeather

    GoldenFeather Active Member

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    I disagree with you on that. Labels oversimplify. They take an entire concept, in all of its complexity and fluidity, and shrink in into a word or two. If a writer must resort to labels (and only labels) to tell a story, then it's not good writing in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2016
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  7. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    It's not about describe the thing with the label, it's about categorising. The label exists to identify a group, just like your name. Your name doesn't say much at all about who you are as a complex human being, but it is necessary to have a way of identifying you as a conversational subject. And who said anything about resorting to labels as a storytelling method? This about simply identifying a character as gay. Should people not identify what category they are? Can you imagine that? "I don't want simplify things so from now on I'd prefer if nobody calls me gay. I have my own sexuality and it's wrong to just stick a label on it. I mean, yeah I'm mad about dick and I've never liked girls but that's not point!" (Yeah, right)
    Also, I love the fact nobody's pointed out complexist isn't a real worldview term. I'm making it a thing!
     
  8. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    I disagree with you on that. "Labels oversimplify" oversimplifies. It take an entire concept, in all of its complexity and fluidity, and shrink in into a word or two. If a writer must choose between "no labels" versus "labels (and only labels)" to tell a story, then it's not good writing in my opinion ;)
     
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  9. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    To clarify the central point I'm making to you anti-label guys, nothing is described by it's category, it merely identifies a set of characteristics shared by members of that group. Does calling someone a Socialist define every nuance of their politics? Does your ethnicity define the exact shade of the colour of your skin? You are disagreeing with every category in existence if complexity and fluidity are the bane of labels to you. It's a one-case application of a general thought, it's inconsistent and therefore immediately pointless. You either apply the logic or you don't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
  10. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    When you people want to stop being considered human, call me.
     
  11. NeighborVoid

    NeighborVoid Active Member

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    The purpose of language is to communicate a thought. The connotation matters as much as the technicalities.
     
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  12. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    And what concerning connotation exists from labeling something under an applicable, well-accepted and non-judgemental term? As I said earlier, it just makes sense and in the modern world gay is a common term that would come up even if the individual does not use it. Gay is gay, there's no point pretending a name doesn't exist. It's there to be used to identify what sexuality you're talking about in the same vein as the word "orange" for a particular fruit. Does it mean anyone's claiming all oranges are perfectly identical? No, they just share many typifying characteristics. I seriously fail to understand how you people do not get this. I've explained over and over again with numerous examples how labels do not stop you representing a things complexity, in fact, they give you a quick way of describing some of the traits it has via comparison. By knowing the orange is a citrus fruit you know a number of the characteristics it has. This allows you to more efficiently carry across a large amount of description by beginning with labels before specifics. "Gay" functions the same way.
     
  13. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Now can we please agree that a functional category does not simplify things only help identify them quicker?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
  14. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I agree that the age gap is a problem, if this story takes place in a country where under-age sex is illegal. However, a 15-year-old falling in love with a 20-year-old does not strike me as wrong. If they truly love each other, then the age gap is only a problem that time will solve. It can be a brake on the physical side of their relationship until the 15-year-old reaches the age of consent, but love doesn't know barriers like this. Love as opposed to 'crush.' Maybe that could figure in your story. The 20-year-old acts responsibly and doesn't allow sexual contact between them, but does acknowledge the love? And says that if the 15-year-old still feels the same in, say 3 years' time, he will still be around? That could be a lesson in all sorts of things. Including how to truly care for your lover.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
  15. Holden LaPadula

    Holden LaPadula Member

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    Revealing his sexuality would not mess it up. Dumbledore is gay! If anything there needs to be MORE about sexuality in young literature. My school reads gruesome books about the Holocaust in sixth grade—war, violence, blood, limbs..... Why can't you have Tony who likes Tonys?

    The age gap might be a problem, though, regardless of sexuality. Unless the theme ends up being that one should avoid them...
     
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  16. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    How about an 18 year old and a 23 year old? Same age gap but legal.
     
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  17. Stesha

    Stesha Member

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    If you want to write a story about a gay 15 year old for middle schoolers, go for it. I like the idea behind his imaginary friend. I think the more problematic issue is the older boyfriend. A five-year age gap doesn't mean much when people get older, but when under the 18 mark it can still be tricky depending on various locations and laws. No matter how "mature" your main character is, or how innocent you draw the picture, the older character could still be perceived as a predator by readers, because why would an adult want to be with a kid? (I am a mother of a 15 year old, and I would never never never let him date a 20 year old. Hell no.) Personally, I would bring the older character's age down by a few years.
     
  18. Samurai Jack

    Samurai Jack Active Member

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    I agree with every opinion that allows for a guy character and a 5 year age gap in the relationship, even with those ages.

    Fast food jobs mean I'm forced to work with high school kids. I see the age gaps in relationships so often I don't think twice about it. I see nonexistent parents, I see parents kept in the dark, and I even see parents acknowledge it happening.

    From my limited perspective, it doesn't seem that bad. I get the statistics, the majority of underage pregnancies happen with older guys. I know why age of consent laws exist. I have wanted to punch grown adults in the face for looking at and commenting on what are obviously underage girls look like in clothes I question anyone allowing them to own.

    But from conversations, there's a level of emotional maturity and stability, and a lack of physical forcefulness coming from the older people in the relationships I encounter. I dunno. Maybe I'm being taken for a fool.
     
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  19. Malisky

    Malisky Malkatorean Contributor

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    I think that the age gap is realistic. When I was in school most teens in relationships didn't have a partner from school and if they were in a relationship from the age of fifteen, then most likely their partner was older and more mature. I wouldn't condemn a relationship between a 15 year old and a 20 year old, because legal or not, they are still considered to be young enough and inexperienced. But I don't know about the YA category and it's limitations to tell you the truth. Never bothered to categorize my writing in strict marketing limitations. If what bothers you is the morality issue from your readers perspective, then you should already know that it really depends upon various parameters such as sexuality, country, culture, trend, etc. So you won't be able to make them all happy or interested about such a matter. But at least, you should have a general idea about which target group your book addresses to. I'm guessing that the male gay and by readers will like it, some girl readers will like it (it's a huge trend in some Asian countries, but I'm guessing you already know) and as for the straight male readers... not so much.

    Furthermore, the age gap legality issue is an interesting issue to be explored. It could be used as an obstacle in their relationship.
     
  20. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh

    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

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    I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but here's why 18-23 works and 15-20 doesn't, legalities aside. Why would a 20 year old ever be interested in a 15 year old? A 15-year old boy, regardless of how mature he is, is still basically dependent upon his parents. They probably still make meals, help clean up, nag him to study, impose a curfew, etc. He also can't drive, so he needs a ride to get places, assuming he doesn't live in a city. He's very limited in jobs he can get, if he has one at all. He also wants to hang out with a group of friends and fit in with the "crowd", he might be in the band, play baseball, be in Scouts, film videos, etc. Does he want a relationship? Probably. But he's never going to be fully capable of having a "grown-up" relationship, until he gets older and becomes more empathetic. Why would a 20 year old want to be with someone who's still fully dependent on his parents? Why would a 20 year old want to be with someone who spends time on activities the 20 year old has grown out of? Why would they want to be with someone who doesn't fully understand the implications and nuances of a relationship?

    But an 18 year old has matured a great deal since they were 15, and so could connect with someone older.
     
  21. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, I'm almost 18 and it was just last year that I really started to take relationships seriously and started to actually care more than sex, I hadn't realised I was a bit shallow before until then. It's also just unlikely that a 15 year old is going to have a serious relationship it's too soon.
     
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  22. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    This age difference isn't Nobokov-ian, but it is just as disturbing.

    Speaking as a gay man, I sure could do -without- anything that encourages associating pedophilia to homosexuality.
     
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  23. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well I wouldn't call 15x20 disturbing, but it's certainly enough to call that stigma upon us.
     
  24. Samurai Jack

    Samurai Jack Active Member

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    You don't know a 20-year-old who is dependent upon their parents? Who doesn't have a car, or even a license? Who isn't qualified or even ambitious enough to get a job past a cashier at McDonald's? Who has also never been in a serious relationship, wouldn't really know what that means anyway?

    You don't know a 15-year-old whose parents are nonexistent? Who works every hour legally possible? Who just needs to turn 16 and can be promoted into a leadership position at work? Who, sure, has never been in a serious relationship, but who is more emotionally mature than the average 30-year-old walking around?

    You seem to be creating a very specific set of circumstances and then legitimately asking why. Well, no, in your example of two people, there's no real reason that 20-year-old would want to be with that 15-year-old. But other situations exist. Other levels of maturity, other emotional connections, other reasons to be together exist.
     
  25. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    It's still an issue though. If nothing else, it will turn people off. I suppose actually, that it's only one relationship it's not representative of anything, so it's not really promoting it. I would say again though it would turn people off. Maybe if they don't engage in full sexual activity until Tony is legal? As @jannert said, that would promote a positive image, and maybe that would reverse the stigma? It seems like it is possible to do it the way the author was thinking, the only problem is that it might be too difficult. It seems like it's not worth it to the story to have to jump through hoops to avoid pedophilia concerns.
     

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