German Police Storm Home, Seize Children... Scary.

The right wing blogosphere, most likely. Or it's more hyperbole.

 

One-sided tolerance is telling people to 'tolerate' your viewpoint, while refusing to 'tolerate' someone else's.

I never said homosexuality doesn't exist nor do I believe that. I never said the theory of evolution doesn't exist not do I believe that. The issue is when others force me to adhere to their own personal beliefs and disrespect mine. I don't care if your family is the Evolutionary Family of the Month, just show the same respect to my family. Everyone is free to practice their religion or lack thereof, it's what America was founded on.

 

So why are you presently living in Australia?

By the way, there's a corollary effect. My step-grandfather (RIP), much as I loved him, would rail and rant about the evil, US capitalist society every damn day I spoke with him, despite comfortably living in the US for the last 20 years of his life. For 60+ years living in the USSR, the US was the enemy, and he couldn't let go of that.

Nevermind that he was presently enjoying the fruits of that US capitalist society. Nevermind that the first time he ever had a full stomach in his entire life under communism was in his mid-20s. He had been at least partially hungry every day of his life before that. Nevermind he had relatives killed in Stalinist purges.

He was a smart man, too. Rocket scientist. But political bias allows one to rationalize the most despicable and abhorrent human abuses. Including a government violently kidnapping a family's children.

This is the liberal mindset in a nutshell. "Intent" is all that matters, not the result.

Millions of people might die, as they did in the Soviet Union, but as long as the "intent" sounds fine, that's alright. I think that's backwards, and the result is what counts, but hey, what do I know...

 

Well, two wrongs don't make a right, do they now, little J_J_Maxx.

This is the most interesting topic. We talk about everything here, from homeschooling to the joys of Kotex infomercials to conditions in Europe. That's partially my fault, ahaha.

Well, for now I must go. I bid you adieu and good night.

 

Very relevant. Try reading the rest of my post above.

 

First, 4th grade is not kindergarten. And second, you'd have to include the curriculum. I'm pretty sure in 5th grade they taught girls about menstruation when I was a kid. Is that the sex ed you speak of?

Or maybe teaching kindergartners that certain kinds touching are not OK and they should tell a responsible adult if someone touches them inappropriately. Is that the sex ed people are referring to?

All of the evidence pretty much comes back saying sex ed leads to delayed sex and decreased teen pregnancies and STDs while teaching abstinence only results in more teen pregnancy. Should we judge by the evidence or parental misconceptions?

 

I don't recall ever stating that it was? I was only describing my own experiences, and noting that it differs wildly from state to state and school district to district.

Thus, unless you're familiar with every single district, which I'm not, you can't say JJ's news is fake, especially since he provided a link. It's just indicative of your political biases.

Whoa, whoa. I don't recall ever making any statements about sex ed, either. Who are you responding to here?

 

(Couldn't sleep. Whatever.)

That WOULD be funny. And mildly depressing.

But in my mind, sex ed is...just that. Everything else (including what was in that article) is not REALLY sex ed, because they're protecting kids from abuse not teaching them about....it.

 

Getting back to the original topic, the point is that a government would go this far to force a healthy family to attend a government-run school system.

If you read laws regarding homeschooling in most civilized countries, children are still tested to make sure they are indeed, learning the fundamentals. The only difference between homeschooling and public school is that public schools have become institutions for promoting social issues.

Sometimes it takes the innocent to suffer under the boot of a tyrannical government to wake people up.

 

I certainly wouldn't call Christmas pageants "social neutral". There really is no social neutral--it's all but impossible to avoid offending someone's beliefs.

Science? Evolution. Global warming. Etcetera.
History? An infinity of disagreement over interpretation of events.
Math? Offhand, I don't know of any way to offend with math, though I'm sure that there are some.

School has never been social neutral.

 

We should keep in mind that it's just as easy for parents to be tyrannical, ignorant, bigoted, and violent as it is for governments. I cringe when I read news articles about kids who died because their parents wouldn't take them to a doctor and told them that they were dying because they weren't praying hard enough.

It doesn't happen very often, which is why it makes news when it does. But maybe governments don't kidnap children from good parents very often either, which is why it makes news when they do.

We should be careful of false dichotomy in discussions like this. Not all governments or government actions are evil and unjustified, and not all parents are wonderful and loving caregivers and educators.

 

The Wiki entry on homeschooling in Germany had some relevant information:

(bold is mine)

The last paragraph includes a recent edit concerning the OP case. The family chose to defy the law.

There's also a link to the case I read about earlier but it says asylum for the family was granted in the US. I'll have to see what's up with that.

Update: Wiki is out of date. The family was granted asylum in 2010 but it was reversed in 2013.

 

It's important to remember that Germany is not a dictatorship! The idea that children need to integrate into society in general, and not be kept outside it by religious parents, is obviously one that the majority of Germans support. That's how the law got made.

That's how democracy works, people. The majority wins. If you're in the minority, you don't win and you need to learn to live with that—but in a state like Germany, you are free to vote for candidates who share your point of view. If enough people agree with you and vote the same way, then YOU will eventually win.

 

Germany tried to 'avoid the emergence' of people who were differently minded once...

...this is scary scary stuff.

 

This is correct except when it comes to things like religious freedom, or race equality or any other basic right that shouldn't be infringed by the majority. Yes, it is a democracy, but our democracy has built in checks and balances to protect minorities.

Also, I don't think you can make a broad assumption that home-schoolers aren't 'integrated into society.' Again, all of this rhetoric sounds a lot like the reeducation camps.

I don't wanna live in a world where everyone has to think the same thing and people who aren't 'integrated' or people who live 'outside' society or people who live 'parallel' to society are rounded up and forced to assimilate.

Like I said, maybe you all don't understand the full weight of the road you are heading down, but you seriously need to do some quiet contemplation.

 

I'm not sure this has been replied to.

One: there is only one side of the story reported in any of the sources I could find. There is no response from the German authorities, so we don't know why they used the force they did other than a judge ordered the intervention*.

Two: the reports are only in right wing and Christian news sources, though I missed the fact the tabloid paper, "The Daily Mail", also covered the story. Unfortunately they unreliably sensationalize stories as well. There are no other news sources and for something that is supposed to be outrageous, one would think at least some news source would pick the story up.

Three: the report uses trigger words liberally, "police storm home, seize four children", "terrifying team", "brutal abduction", "abduction of their kids", and the battering ram is mentioned despite it not having been used. Later we find out, "The homeschooling saga of the Wunderlichs has dragged on for four years."


*See what I did there with the description?

 

A Christian family wants to homeschool their children, just like millions of Americans do freely. They came to America and the government revoked their asylum, sending them back to Germany where they inevitably were persecuted and had their family torn apart.

I don't care where you live, it's not a cultural issue, it's a human issue. It's a freedom issue and it's an issue that can be understood by anyone, anywhere.

 

Be careful not to put "religious freedom" and "race equality" on the same footing. Religion is a choice; race is not. Sexual orientation is not. I haven't had any experience with being persecuted for my race, but I do know what it's like to be spat on by religious people because I'm gay. I can't choose not to be gay, but they can choose not to spit. Many of them choose to spit anyway, claiming "religious freedom."

Sorry. I don't usually comment in these political threads. But equating religious freedom to race equality or gay equality is guaranteed to push a damn big button for me.

 

Re-education camps? Good grief!

So without any basis other than the homeschool issue you make the broad assertion Germany doesn't have religious freedom or race equality.

Not that we have race equality here, but technically the law is supposed to protect ethnic groups. What law in Germany denies the same status to ethnic minorities that are German citizens?

As for religious equality, From Wiki:

But it turns out there is a different reason for the discrimination. The issues re Islam are not due to racism but due to the lack of any centralized religious authority:

I fail to see how that is any different than some mosques have experienced here in the US. Do you care equally about their religious freedom, JJ? How far should that freedom extend? Is it OK for Muslim extremists to teach their children their god wants them to kill infidels?

It looks like religious freedom is dealt with just slightly differently than here in the US, but given the recent history of two major wars, I certainly don't see anything in that Wiki article that comes anywhere close to your description of some dangerous reality in Germany.

I recall the Scientologists' religious status was denied in a kerfuffle there a few years back. But many believe they are a cult that is scamming people out of money so there is a legitimate reason for that denial of status.

If anything, it appears religious groups receive more benefits in Germany than here in the US. Sheesh, as an atheist, I'd be annoyed if I had to pay a tax and name a religion it was to go to:
Religious Freedom in Germany