Harry Potter

Discussion in 'Discussion of Published Works' started by Paki-Writing, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. Sephie913

    Sephie913 New Member

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    I get that a lot. But I can't be alone in this! I truly admire the characterization of Snape, which has twenty or thirty times as much depth and complexity as Harry. So harry is, by comparison to a SECONDARY character of the same series, an inferior personality.

    I can't bring myself to even consider the Potter series as a competitor for the "best fantasy since Lord of the Rings" category. I'd consider Robert Jordan, Raymond E. Feist, or Salvatore long before Rowling's stuff. It's not even High Fantasy, or at least, not to most people.

    As for the Eragon comment, were you referring to the movie alone, or the entire book series. Because I haven't found the books to bee any worse than the Harry Potter series. (The movie was disappointing, I'll admit.)

    --

    I agree with the opinion that the media got Rowling's series started, and it was good enough that most people could stand to read through it, and most that read it to enjoy at least some portion well enough to continue reading the series. I think I'm done reading them, though. Unless one of the upcoming is extraordinary, I think I'll pass.
     
  2. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    Endorsement by authority figures is a form of advertising, technically.
     
  3. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Occasionally there are ads on television here urging people to read the Bible, sponsored by one of the Christian sects.

    Also, there are stores and catalogs for Christian products, including Bibles. That too is marketing.

    However, this is off topic.
     
  4. Heather Louise

    Heather Louise Contributor Contributor

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    I know loads of ideas have been said already as to why the book has been so popular, but I always feel as though I need to echo them when it is mentioned because I adore the books.

    They were not the first books I read, but having read one at the age of seven, I decided I wanted to write stories too. They are light-hearted enough to make them suitable for children, comical and have serious moments to appeal to adults, and have such fantastic description and world creations that it blows your mind.

    Just my two cents
     
  5. Paki-Writing

    Paki-Writing New Member

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    The one thing I got from everyone is that they are enjoyable books to read.

    I'm glad she wrote those books. I hope she writes more so my cousins can put down the video-game controllers and read some more.
     
  6. Ennui

    Ennui New Member

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    I saw,amid all of my classmates,a boy who is so obsessed with those Harry Potter series books.He invariably read the book when he is anywhere.I do not know why that denotes,probably Harry Potter is touted by many children.
     
  7. architectus

    architectus Banned

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    I agree that Harry Potter is not fine literature, but that is partly why it is a good novel. I personally do not want the novels I read to be fine literature. I know there is a market for those types of novels. It doesn't seem to be in high demand, though.

    Literary novels are cool in their own right. It is a nice way to show off ones abilities to use different writing techniques. Similar to how you can do the same in poetry. I just don't think it is a good style for novels. But a book on philosophy or science written in a literary style is cool.

    I knew this NY published author that recently died. I asked him, "What kind of novels do you write." He said, "I write literature." I said, "What genre?" He said, "Literature." I said, "Is it more horror, sci-fi, mystical, etc?" "Well it's a story with characters and my main theme is the human condition."

    I figured oh, he is one of those kinds of authors. Story is almost secondary. Writing almost poetic sentences comes first. Bleh. Not my kind of novel.

    And thank God for me it is not that popular, or I might not have so many good novels to select from.
     
  8. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    *opens mouth*

    No, you know what? It's not even worth it. Dude, there's just... you can't... I don't think you...

    Oh, never mind. I quit. I give up.
     
  9. architectus

    architectus Banned

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    I think it is just that we have different taste. You probably like authors more like Faulkner and Ray Bradbury, both fine story tellers BTW, and I prefer more the likes of Dean Koontz and Hemingway.
     
  10. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    Actually, I like Ray Bradbury and Hemingway. Faulkner could bore a hole through concrete, and Koontz is just bland.

    You're just... making categories and generalizations that would take me about twenty pages to unpack and correct. The way you use "literature" is not what "literature" means (though it's a common misunderstanding, I suppose), and it's not what I mean by "literature." The problem is I don't think we have enough vocabulary in common for me to explain it to you without about six hours of face-to-face time in a library where I can grab examples off of the shelves.
     
  11. Silver Random

    Silver Random New Member

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    My sentiments exactly lol :D Those types of books are good for writing essays on. Not so many of them are actually all that entertaining to read. And in the end that's why i'm reading, to be entertained, not to plough through hundreds of pages of dull prose with a tedious plot, all to hear about some guy's take on "the human condition". I also dislike the snobbery around "literature".

    But yeah for Harry Potter, i'd agree with scattercat, though the way he is saying it seems to be offending others who like Harry Potter books. I enjoyed Harry Potter, it was one of my favourite series. I dont know if it was "specially selected to be the most successful fantasy book" or anything, but i know the way i started it, many years ago, was when my parents gave me Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone and said "I've heard its supposed to be really good." So considering that nearly my whole household went on to read the series, to the extent that we ended up buying 3 of the 5th, 6th and 7th books, so that we wouldnt have to wait for someone to finish before we could read them, thats 4 people that were hooked by originally by good marketing and advertising. We kept reading because the writing was good, but i'm not going to pretend that i read Harry Potter and thought "What a smashing piece of good quality literature!" Some aspects of it are good, some are merely passable.
     
  12. architectus

    architectus Banned

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    Is Hemingway fine lit? If so what makes his writing fine lit and J. K. Rowling not fine lit. in your opinion?

    If you do not consider Hemingway fine lit. then I agree, and it is why I enjoy his simple style, because he is not flowery like Ray Bradbury. Although I did enjoy reading Something Wicked This Way Comes, but I would have preferred the same story written in a different style.
     
  13. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    Hemingway is fine literature because he uses language in a new and unique way, just like Ray Bradbury and even (much as I personally dislike him) Faulkner. Hemingway's style is short, abrupt, and direct, and yet oddly circuitous as well. He dances around meaning while speaking plainly, and I find that fascinating.

    He has a wonderful economy of form, and his structure is interesting; he builds as much as he can with as little material as he can manage. It's a similar trait that I admire in Roger Zelazny (one of my favorite authors), and one that I freely admit is highly lacking in me.

    Hemingway's genius lies in the simplicity of his writing, which conceals the complexity of his stories. He once said that the secret of "The Old Man and the Sea" was that the old man was just an old man, the fish was just a fish, the sharks were just sharks, and the sea was just the sea. Because of the elegance of his style, one can read that story and receive almost any message one wishes. Reading more deeply can show you some of Hemingway's own traits, his fatalism and his dogged determination.

    Great literature is defined by several things, including (and not necessarily limited to) elegance of language, clarity of insight, and how well the author communicates his/her point of view to the reader. ALL great books speak to "the human condition," as you so derisively put it; that's part of what MAKES them great books. They say something about US that we can hear and understand, and they address concerns which are fundamental to what it means to be human, whether it's a question about our purpose, an ode to our glories, or a scathing critique of our failures.

    However, a truly great book addresses the human condition with skill and eloquence. Sure, not everyone is going to like every style, but one can recognize the skills regardless. I loathe Faulkner. I can't read the man. He is dense and incomprehensible, and frankly I can't be asked to unravel his torturous tangles. However, when I read his writing, I can see that he has a large amount of skill with words. He uses his language very deliberately, and his structure is consistent and cohesive (if also mind-bogglingly dull).

    ETA: To get back on topic, the Harry Potter books do NOT have that elegance of form. The writing is occasionally bland and uninteresting, and the plot and characterization often lack depth or believability. Yes, it addresses the human condition, and sometimes quite well, but by and large it has nothing to offer but trite, saccharine platitudes rather than real insights, and the writing quality never gets much above "workmanlike" and "enjoyable, light reading."

    Am I making sense to you?
     
  14. architectus

    architectus Banned

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    Yes your point of view makes perfect sense, but I still don't see then how Rowling is not good writing. Although I do not care for Harry Potter, it does have those things you mentioned? (elegance of language, clarity of insight, and how well the author communicates his/her point of view to the reader.)

    By elegance of language, I thought you meant poetic like some of Bradbury's sentences, but since you said Hemingway is elegant, then I don't see why Rowling is not. I'm not saying Rowling is as skilled as Hemingway when it comes to simplicity, but her writing is simple and has never confused me.

    I guess I am trying to understand why Harry Potter, and the Goblet of Fire would be any less good lit (According to how you defined it) than any of Hemingway's novels.
     
  15. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    Elegance isn't the same as simple. Something is elegant if it is simple and yet also performs its task well and with style.

    Harry Potter is written simply, yes, but it is not elegant. Many of the sentences are awkward. Words are repeated in descriptions. The plot meanders or has holes of logic. The characters tend towards one note or defining trait. The precise difference is exactly what you pointed out: Hemingway handles his language with obvious skill and dexterity. Rowling is not as talented as Hemingway, therefore the books are less well-written than Hemingway's.

    Does everyone need to be as talented as Hemingway? Of course not! The Harry Potter books were meant to entertain, and they do that very well. Not every piece of writing needs to be "great literature." Are the Harry Potter books bad? Of course not! They're fine. Quite good, even, in some ways.

    However, the initial question here, if I may remind us all, was, "Why are the Harry Potter books so popular?" The answer is emphatically NOT because of how well-written they are. That is the only point I've been trying to make. They are competent and easy to read, and because of that they were successful even after they were advertised and hyped up.

    ETA:
    Let me give another example. Rowling's book tries to make the point that courage is an admirable trait. This is one of the themes she is trying to convey. How does she do it?

    Her main character acts boldly and then... wins. Every time. Even when he really shouldn't, even when there is no logical reason for it. He does things which are unethical or morally suspect, he disobeys and is disrespectful, he does frankly stupid stuff, but he wins because he is "brave." That is not a very good way to make a point, and it doesn't communicate the theme very strongly. Because of the lack of believability, the message is weakened.

    Neville is a far stronger example of that theme, and even there Rowling has to have Dumbledore TELL us all at the feast about how what Neville did was brave, rather than letting his actions speak for themselves. That is weak writing, and it is why I say the Harry Potter books are not amazingly well-written.
     
  16. architectus

    architectus Banned

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    On that we can agree then :) The Harry Potter books are not written as well as any of Hemingway's novels.

    I would say they are written well, though, and are good novels. They are just not something I am into.

    Totally off topic, and maybe you could IM it to me, but why what would you say makes Dean Koontz writing bland. And do you consider him a good or at least okay writer? I only ask because he is my favorite author. Although I have grown tired of his formula that he has used to death.
     
  17. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Harry Potter, I would say, is written well, but it is not great writing. It is simple and direct, as befits writing for that target audience. Not that I am saying she should write down to her readers, and I don't believe she does. There is enough depth for its purpose, along with a fair share of light social commentary. Also, it tells a good story.

    I think if it were written with more finesse and style, it might have lost a good portion of its readership, though.

    The fact is, the series has done so much to enciorage reading, and even writing, among a population that has been steadily turning away from the written word, is a higher testament to its value than a critical assessment of the Ms. Rowling's writing style would be.
     
  18. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    Now that I wholeheartedly agree with.
     
  19. Daniel

    Daniel I'm sure you've heard the rumors Founder Staff

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    I'd never really thought of it that way, but Cogito, I suspect you are correct. Rowling's books really have boosted general readership and authorship, which in itself demonstrates the value of the books.
     
  20. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    I would like to quibble with the idea that writing a "good" book somehow means it won't be accessible. I think if the Harry Potter series were better written it would have been even more wildly successful than it was. Again, consider elegance: simple, functional, and stylish. Why settle for merely simple and functional? I think kids are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. I know I skipped over most of the "young adult" tripe when I was young and went straight for the "real" novels.

    Anyway, it's worth noting that no one has ever questioned the value of Harry Potter. The question has always been "Why is it popular?" not "It is great literature?" (Or even "Is it good?") The effects of its popularity have been almost universally positive, with the possible exceptions of some truly egregious erotic fanfiction.
     
  21. marina

    marina Contributor Contributor

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    Hmm, I've been thinking about why, then, The Old Man and the Sea is considered great literature.

    Everything about the story is bare, frugal--simple plot, straightforward writing. And his writing style is very accessible.

    I'm not a fan of Hemingway. I remember at the end of it thinking, "WTH?" And then Cliff Notes came to my aid, lol. But still it did not stir my imagination, inspire me, or anything at all.
     
  22. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    The Old Man and the Sea is great because it shows the struggle of man against a greater power with a very simple yet elegant way of writing.

    But on topic. Harry Potter did, as Cogito mentioned, inspire many kids to read and perhaps even write. While JK Rowling can't be compared to Hemingway or other great authors, I feel she accomplished a lot in introducing the younger generation to reading/writing.
     
  23. Sephie913

    Sephie913 New Member

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    Yes, but that makes you a reader. Think of the thousands, or even millions of people who, in general, despise reading anything heavier than a newspaper or magazine. And yet many such people were captivated by Rowling's work. That has to say something to her accessibility, as opposed to elegance. I think that if it were any more stylistic- a trait "non-readers" would not appreciate- it would make them less accessible to the public.

    It is good for pulling in people who are not necessarily fans of the genre, or of books in general. But if you already have a liking for fantasy, it is probably wise to move on to more complex authors.

    I'll openly admit it: th Harry Potter series introduced me to fantasy, and if not for it I may not have the wonderful relationship with the genre that I do. But since I have realized that I like the fantasy genre in general, I have moved on to deeper works by more complex authors.
     
  24. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    Good and accessible can exist in the same book!

    Look at Terry Pratchett. Read "The Amazing Maurice." Tell me that book isn't accessible and I will straight up laugh in your face, but it is also GOOD. It has style dripping out of its ears! It has subtle characterization and lots of depth that rewards close reading, and yet it is easy enough to be enjoyed by a ten year old.

    Quality writing does NOT have to come at the expense of accessibility, and if someone had taken "Amazing Maurice" and given it the Harry Potter ad treatment, it would have done just as well, if not better. Instead, because it was dismissed as a "young adult" book from someone who usually writes more mature fantasy, it's ended up in a little eddy of obscurity.

    Everyone keeps insisting on this false dichotomy, that somehow a GOOD book won't be liked by the public. But that's half of what makes a good book GOOD; this is why I dislike Faulkner and his ilk, because they sacrifice much of the pleasure of reading for their high-brow artistic goals.
     

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