@JJ_Maxx Again, no disrespect, but enjoy your disagreement. I'm not a debater. I have my reasons for my beliefs, and you have yours. I know the history of Christianity, so I know where I stand. Based on what I know, most of it comprises what seems to be the biggest fabrication the world has ever seen. But that's neither here nor there, hold onto your faith. I would never ask you to change anything on my account. (And as it happens I'm not a Christianity-hater, not an atheist. I consider myself without a label, but if a label is necessary I'd say Christian Spiritualist.) As for being morally and intellectually bankrupt its all a matter of which ruler you're measuring with and which lens you're looking. We here in America, especially those of the Christian sort, tend to think we have the cosmos all figured out based on one collection of texts. We are prone to ethnocentrism.
I missed you for the last week JJ... Anyway, If you read my post properly, without looking to flame as usual you will see my argument is with what's being taught in school - not the ideals of thanksgiving. My 6 year old nephew came home from school last week telling me the teachers taught his class about how Pilgrims ate with Natives and they all gave thanks for a great harvest - together! Santa and The Easter Bunny are one thing...
Has it stopped? Even a little? Maybe in the Western or where we like to refer to as the civilised world but I'm sure there are parts of the world where's it's as rife as ever. Is anyone in Western power going to face it? Curb it? Or even try stamp it out?
The question is do we have the right to? Do we have the obligation to? What makes us so sure imposing our lifestyle on a developing culture is the right thing to do for the world? Not to say slavery, torture, and the like are acceptable, but what makes our society so perfect that the world needs a westernized/americanized world-view? Can we put a stop to brutality without totally eradicating a culture? I mean Europe did it to the rest of the world--that is, saved the "savage" people and brought Christianity and "civilization" (not to suggest they made the world a less brutal place for indigenous peoples). Again, I'm not hating on anyone, but asking questions having looked though a social/historical lens.
I think I better goo before I use up all of my good ideas here and have none left for my final papers. This dragon's blown enough smoke anyway.
Thanks, I remember commenting there, now that you bring it up. And good, that means I'm asking the right questions. Life rarely offers easy solutions.
JJ, I'm sorry, but when you started talking about religious values leading to the demise of civilization, I have to walk away. Forget the studies and the data - you have, like so many, decided that the young are going to hell in a handbasket and all because of their lack of morality and religious teachings. I won't mention that every single generation has said the same thing about the ones coming after (my mother, God rest her soul, used to tell me about her parents saying the same thing - back in the 20s). As to teachers and how tough they have it - sure, there are cases where it's difficult. But my mother was a teacher - 1 room schoolhouse, all 8 grades, books passed from student to student, also had to act as janitor (including dealing with the woodstove in the winter) - and she only got the job because the teacher before her had his arm broken by a couple of the students. (By the end of the winter, those same students were hauling the wood in for her, without being asked.) Her pay? A monthly stipend and room and board with the parents. Sooooo... not all that sympathetic to modern teachers' plight.
Those were simpler times though, socially and economically. Everyone lived much differently than we do now. Granted, today if we were to lose all our tech or electricity, most of us would not survive (I'd be forming alliances), but even so modern teacher's plight are not unfounded because society has changed so much. Not that you said they're unfounded. It's hard to feel sympathetic for anyone in the modern world when compared to the hardship from way back when. My great-grandma is always talking about how she "used to have to walk a mile to school in the snow in a skirt because girls weren't allowed to wear pants." Certainly make it hard to feel for me not wanting to drive around the corner to the grocery store because it's 54 degrees out and raining.
These damn kids today, even their music is just noise. No respect I tells ya - none! God bless Laura Ingles...
I was replying to comments that only addressed the US. You're choir preaching if you want to tell me about the state of the world's human rights record.
I'm not, just saying we as a race haven't improved all that much considering how long we've been here
Unless you are really interested in an up-river swim, your best bet is to get a copy of Howard Zinn's The People's History of the United States and teach it to your nephew yourself (or get his parents to) at the age appropriate times. History curriculum taught in US grade schools is more like patriotic myths someone thought all kids should soak up. Betsy Ross, honest Abe, Washington's cherry tree confession, Columbus the good guy, what's taught at that age is close to pure myth.
Comes back to what's been said in this thread again and again, it depends on what you choose to pay attention to. If I compare the Western world to tribal life in Afghanistan I might conclude the whole world was closer to tribal brutality 10,000 years ago and now there are fingers pushing far out of that envelope. Because there are still people in the bottom of the envelope doesn't mean no progress has been made.
erebh if you ruin the holidays for me...I will haunt you in your dreams. Actually I already hate the holidays so you probably can't ruin them for me, but damn it, some things are sacred!
We have a different definition of "all that much". From my female POV, I'm ever so grateful to have grown up in a modern county. Even with all the strikes against me based on gender, they pale in comparison to unfortunate women in much of the world. 5-10K years ago, there would have been no place a female would have been born into fortunate circumstances except perhaps a rare ruler here and there.
I referred to being able to own a home, not being able to rent one. Isn't much of our economy based on the fact that people respond when they're rewarded financially? It doesn't make sense to me to re-argue that principle from the ground up. It seems more logical that the people who feel that teachers are an exception, that they don't respond when rewarded financially, should have to explain why that exception exists.
Well I think there are quite a few professions you can argue that for, but not everyone can be rich. Like I have already said, this isn't going to be a surprise to people who go to school to be teachers and make that life choice. They know the situation up front, so why cry over spilled milk? If you want to get rich in your profession be a lawyer, a doctor, or go into crime, don't become a teacher. Hey we don't want to live in a world of filth, so let's give janitors a raise! We want to get quality food every time we go out to eat, let's give fast food workers a raise! We want to get through the check out line at Wal-Mart faster, let's give cashiers a raise! That sounds well and good, but that isn't how an economy works. You can't pay everyone top dollar.
"Janitors" do a good deal more than cleaning--they do some pretty essential and skilled maintenance work on buildings. So I'm changing that to "cleaners". As far as I know, we don't have a national issue with attracting and retaining good cleaners, fast food workers, and cashiers. We don't have a national need for people who make cleaning, fast food work and cashiering a lifetime career path. Those tend to be entry-level jobs, and in a good economic situation people would move past those jobs to better ones. They should be better-paid jobs than they are, with better benefits, but they are not causing a national crisis. Teaching is a career path, and we have an ongoing criss with education. This thread is *about* the issue with education, but when I say that teachers should get better pay, your response suggests that there's nothing particularly relevant or important about teaching. That's not making sense to me. Edited to add: I ask again: Why is teaching an exception to the rule that you get better and more effective employees with financial rewards?
Fast food isn't a problem? Have you seen the pictures of what some of the workers do to the food? But do go on. You do realize that there are a lot of teachers out there that make a great deal of money. College professors for one. Teaching is also one of those jobs where they are rewarded for continuing education. The higher the degree the more they get paid. So if a teacher isn't making much money teaching, they can either work towards a Masters, or get a different career. Nothing is forcing people to become teachers, this is the point you are missing. It takes a special type of person to choose that career path. To me, it sounds like you think money will fix everything, and that's exactly the opposite. If you start giving teachers unreal money, then you are going to start getting people that are lazy to become teachers because they think they can make money off of doing it. Teachers, nurses, firemen, police officers, park rangers, full duty military personnel, they are all jobs for people that are looking for a different reward out of life than a green back.
Another way the world is getting a bit better: not too long ago almost everyone in the world including modern europeans and americans felt it was basically ok, if not outright virtuous, to wage primitive wars on sectarian grounds anywhere at any time. Nowadays that view is very un-PC in almost all parts of the world. Not that such wars are going away in any foreseeable conditions, but we are starting to develop a universally accepted morality which ostensibly disavows such things. Pretty neat if you ask me.
