How important is the science??

Discussion in 'Science Fiction' started by Stephen1974, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. Vince Higgins

    Vince Higgins Curmudgeon. Contributor

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    Don't think Niven and Pournelle made up the light sail. I think some physicist proposed it.
     
  2. Set2Stun

    Set2Stun Rejection Collector Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Contest Winner 2022

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    Fascinating, now we need an olde/middle English thread! I would love to learn more. A quick internet search of "gurles" does not support your assertion, but I didn't spend more than a few minutes at it. I have to imagine toddlers of either sex wore dresses so that they would piss and shit on the ground more than on their clothing. Just makes sense.
     
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  3. Set2Stun

    Set2Stun Rejection Collector Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Contest Winner 2022

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    It's just the earliest I had heard of it. The very first time for me was that DS9 episode. I see that the basic principles had been explored much earlier, and the general concept might have been established in the 60s. I've been reading a lot of golden age science fiction of late, which has been a little mind-blowing at times (ie. Heinlein's 'flat cats' are the original Tribbles), but no solar sails for me til Mote.
    History of sci-fi/spec-fic concepts is a fun topic to explore as well.
     
  4. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I couldn't find any confirmation either until I stumbled across this just now:

    "in the period of Middle English, 1150 to 1349, all young children were called girls. Boys were identified as 'knave girls', and girls as 'gay' or 'maiden girls'. The Oxford English dictionary confirms this.

    BBC’s History Extra site also confirms that for centuries boys were called girls and states:
    “Until the late 15th century the word ‘girl’ simply means a child of either sex. Boys, where they had to be differentiated, were referred to as ‘knave girls’ and girls in the female sense were called ‘gay girls’. Equally a boy could be a ‘knave child’ and a girl a ‘maiden child’.

    The term ‘boy’ was reserved for servants or ‘churls’, the meaning ‘young man’ probably deriving from the latter as a pejorative term but not occurring before 1440.”"
    Source

    This isn't where I originally saw it. And I think the wordes were spelled in more correct Moderne English for this particular articul (the one I quoted above). I remember seeing extracts in the original spelling and it was something like Gurles. Maybe I found in in the Oxford English Dictionary?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
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  5. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    OK, here we go—with quotes: girl(e

    Example quotes:

     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  6. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    I guess the popularity and longevity of this thread is proof that the science is important. But whether you can get a bunch of writers to agree on the exact degree of importance... well that appears impossible. We can nitpick anything. :D
     
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  7. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    ... And veere off topikke! Sorry, I need to stop now.
     
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  8. QueenOfPlants

    QueenOfPlants Definitely a hominid

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    You made me laugh with your creative spelling, though. :)
     
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  9. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I love the creative aspect of spelling and usage in the Middle English period. It was still that way in Shakespeare's time, though it was becoming (or already was?) Modern English. Of course, all that creative spelling invented by individual writers makes things complicated and frustrating.

    In a sense this is about science, if you consider linguistics a science, so it's somewhat on topic (right?) I'm driven by fascination and this subject spikes it. I want to say one more thing about it if I may, about why it was so difficult to find this information.

    I see the internet as being extremely broad but very shallow, like a floodplain. It's like a thin layer of water (information and connectivity) that shallowly covers the Western world. I know, it exists in the East too, but that seems to be separate or very tightly controlled. And what I mean by shallow is that you can learn a lot, but not in great depth, except that it allows you to connect with occasional wells of deep information—mostly in the form of books (like the Oxford English Dictionary for instance, where the info I posted above originally came from).

    Most people are aware of the vast shallow sheet of digital water where you can surface-skim all over, like jet-skiing. But most of those deeper wells of knowledge are protected. For instance, to access the Oxford English Dictionary online you need to create an account. It's free, but it takes a little effort. The majority of people won't do that (writers are different of course). Such deep wells include places like Project Gutenberg and the Internet Archive (Archive.org), where you can find digitized books online. No account needed for those sources, but it takes a bit of effort and reading to access the deep information. That puts off the average websurfer. The other way the internet can connect you with wells of information is by leading you to stores where you can buy books.

    I think the main reason information goes so much deeper in books than on the internet is because people earn a living writing books. I mean before there was self-publishing mostly, when you'd spend a year or two working on a book and earn enough money doing it to support yourself and maybe your family. That allowed people to do the research necessary to delve into those depths. When people write blog posts and web articles, since most of it is unpaid and/or designed specifically for shallow internet access in this sound-byte era, it's done quickly and without a great deal of research. In general of course—there are exceptions.

    Also, writing a book for traditional publication before the era of the internet meant serious editorial expectations, and if it was a non-fiction work— a work of research—that came with high expectations and standards.

    This is my own conjecture and observations, I didn't do any deep research on it. Hey, I live in the internet age! I've been known to get pretty intense in many of my blog posts, but I write them up in one afternoon.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
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  10. QueenOfPlants

    QueenOfPlants Definitely a hominid

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    Project Gutenberg is blocked in Germany due to copyright issues. :/
     
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  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    That is a real shame. I don't know for a fact, just assuming, but Gutenberg even sounds like a German name!

    EDIT—Yep. It is.

    Archive.org has many Project Gutenberg books in its collection.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  12. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

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    EDIT—Yep. It is.[/QUOTE]
    Outstanding royalties accrued to the benefit of a Mr Jerome... since 1450?
     
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  13. QueenOfPlants

    QueenOfPlants Definitely a hominid

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    Yes, I use it too. :)
    And, there is this marvellous invention called "A VPN Service" which allows my thinking machine to project its mind into another country.

    Yes, very likely.
     
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  14. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    Well I'm eternally grateful for the internet. I have become a fish in the shallow water and I already know where all the deep wells are so it's easy for me to explore. :p
     
  15. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Your computer, or your mind? Both of course. And yes, thank god for the almighty VPN!
     
  16. QueenOfPlants

    QueenOfPlants Definitely a hominid

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    I have yet to master the art of projecting my own mind into other countries via VPN. ^ ^
    My computer seems to have more talent at that than I have.
     
  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Ah, but you project your mind to those other countries through your computer! Or at least you can say you greatly lessen the distance between them, so you can read stuff written in a faraway land. Your voice carries your spirit to people even on a distant hill, and their voice carries theirs to your ears, which then transfer it to your mind. In the same way the electricity pulsing along the wires or satellite links to other countries closes the gap between your mind and the ones who wrote the content on the other side of the world. (Like me)
     
  18. Vince Higgins

    Vince Higgins Curmudgeon. Contributor

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    Lets not forget space elevators. Two fictional references I've read are RA Heinlein's Friday, and Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy. In the last case it was anchored to Phobos.
     
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  19. Set2Stun

    Set2Stun Rejection Collector Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Contest Winner 2022

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    I read Friday about two years ago, I remember that bit. And I was reminded of that concept from the new Foundation series (didn't remember from the books; been a long time since I read those).
     
  20. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    Well, spelling was pretty haphazard back in the day, so either would probably work. And "corn" could refer to literal grains or anything that was granular in form, like salt. That's where the term "corned beef" came from: beef that was packed in rock salt, which dried it out and preserved it.
     
  21. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    I first heard about the space elevator concept from Arthur C. Clarke's novel The Fountains of Paradise, which came out in 1973, three years before Friday.
     
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  22. MartinM

    MartinM Banned

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    Love this thread and I hope it continues. Have replied twice to the OP and @Stephen1974 choice of book as an example. Still waiting on a reply to that one. There is another annoying problem I have with sci-fi and its humans in a non-1G environment.

    Robinson’s Mars Trilogy is a great read, but flawed. You can’t terraform the planet’s atmosphere as it will be ripped off by solar radiation. The next issue is the first settlers. They will live in protective domes etc. with all the life support needed. Mars is about 40% that of Earth gravity. And this is my main gripe. An extended stay on the planets surface will result in a massive bone density loss.

    For every one year on Mars, you would expect a five-year reduction in life expectancy. This gets much worse in zero G. Humans do adapt to their environment, but is more generational. In the Mars Trilogy we see people born on Mars being much taller in height. This is repeated in The Expanse with the Belters born in space having the same traits after a single generation...

    And this is my gripe, a baby conceived in space or on Mars as a low probability of making it to term. If it does, the life expectancy is less than 30years. The life expectancy will start to extend with the offspring given a stable environment. It may take several generations to return to a 100year life span...

    This hurdle is a key flaw in modern colonization. Parents don’t generally go out of their way to make their offspring’s lives shorter and harder. So, surface work becomes short stay returning back to a 1G environment. This would be something that generates artificial G like an O’Neil cylinder in orbit. A full living presence on the surface is impossible.

    I believe it would be extremely unlikely that we humans try to evolve or adapt to living permanently in a different environment to 1G...

    Sorry for the length

    MartinM
     
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  23. Stephen1974

    Stephen1974 Active Member

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    Actually they leave the airships all the time, hence the name Hell Divers. They dive in to the hell that earth has become in order to scavange supplies. Or as the tag line say. "We dive so humantity survives" and as the series progresses they become less and less dependent on airships.
     
  24. Stephen1974

    Stephen1974 Active Member

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    Sorry it took a while to reply :) I saw your post mentioning you were waiting...

    In terms of the authors popularity. I rate him as one of the most enjoyable authers to read. I'd only put Bernard Cornwall ahead of him, so beating out the likes of Lee Childs, Tom Clancy, CJ Sansom who are other authors in my favs list. He does tend to write faily long series. His extinction series ran to around 12 or 14 books I think. His shorter series tends to be around 4 books.

    He isnt strictly a sci-fi writer, hes a post apocolyptic writer, be it alien invasions, devestating plagues, wars. He's currently doing a scifi style post apocolyptic take on the rise of AI. Series is called E-day and his second book just came out.

    I had a look at the ratings review on amazon. First one says this.

    Now thats wholly inaccurate as there is very little in the book about climate change other than using it to set up the reason for bringing an AI online. Seems the reader is just an anti-climate changer hater who is gonna hate for the sake of it.


    Then I read this one.

    This one is far more interesting and I kind wish I could reply to its author. (I've added the numbers in myself so I can address them)

    1. I admit I did feel this as well. He's not done that before, though most of his works have been set in the real world, but even in Hell Divers he didnt lay out the history of how they got to this point at the start of the book. We discovered the history gradually alongside the characters. However, there it was a lost history, but in E-day it would have been a known history as it was in real time.
    2. I agree with this as well, it was unsual to see such slow character development. He may have been dealing with two many subplots on this one. However, once those sub plots are established, then we get the character development. Especially in the second book.
    3. That is his style - its very fast paced action with lots of flying body parts. You either like it or you dont.
    4. Agree 100% with that. Dr Cross is the main bad guy and even after book 2, he does feel like a cartoon villain.
    5. The author here has made some assumptions about what to expect about the AI's behaviour. He mentions maybe there is a twist coming after he gave up - yeah, there was.


    So this is actually a really good review, from a review point of view, maybe not from a sales point of view. I wasnt 100% sold on book 1, but book 2 makes me want to get book 3. Interestingly, this is what happened with hs last series. Book 1 was meh, but book 2 and 3 were quite good - but his publisher pulled the plug on the series. I hope that doesnt happen here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
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  25. MartinM

    MartinM Banned

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    @Stephen1974

    Many thanks for the reply, it wasn’t a dig. I was really intrigued why you used that particular book and author. Your OP is clear, but the focus on the bad reviews through me somewhat. A quick investigation showed overwhelming support for the book. If anything, a brilliant sales pitch by you, he needs to give you credit.

    What caught my eye reading through the Good and Bad reviews is how many say exactly the same things. Good reviews highlighting poor plausibility and weak characters. Bad reviews saying his writing style is off the charts. It feels like he’s got a Lee Child fast descriptive pace about him. Your own likes add to this. And to rate him in the same league as your favourites is heavy praise indeed.

    You need to be his manager… His current series you give us examples of reviews posted.

    I agree with you totally on this first reviewer. He’s already got a fixed view of the world and completely disagrees with the prologue. He stopped reading at this point. Doesn’t mention the writing style, just makes an assumption on the whole series without getting past the prologue. This is unfair. If he’d said the writing was garbage as well then, I could understand it.

    The second review and your additions are telling. Very similar to the other series, I feel I know what to expect if I ever read one of his books. I think I’m agreeing with your OP that the science in SCI-FI needn’t be spot on. However, like I’ve stated in the previous replies it does need to be plausible enough to underpin the story been told. In the case of this author, he fails at plausibility in his works to such an extent his story telling although strong is not enough to entertain the reader satisfactorily.

    I will try one of his works at some point just see and report back! SOLD

    MartinM
     

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