I want to be a Poet...

Discussion in 'The Craft of Writing Poetry' started by VynniL, May 21, 2016.

  1. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    And now I have just had a grumpy argument with hubby. When I read my poetry to him, he often makes me cranky by always pointing how when I 'break the rhyming pattern'. Then I feel pressured to change it; that I am pushed to simplify for the sake of rhyming. I want to have different rhythms and inconsistencies in rhymes if I want.

    So my question to anyone who may care to answer, do we really need to follow rules and styles and stick to consistent beats or rhythms within a poem itself?
     
  2. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Nope. Poems are art. Art is express for emotional . If yoy get emotions the rules dont matter. Some people intentionally real the rules for this effect.

    Thing is so some thst doesn't love the art may only see rules much like how when I asked someone to read my work for the first time they marked it up with a red pen even though my only question was if they enjoyed it
     
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  3. Auger

    Auger Member

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    Emotions are not a prerequisite for qualifying as art.

    Art is the science of design. A work of poetry designed to elicit emotions is art. A construction plan designed to create a product is also art.
     
  4. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Um, sort of? I don't think you'd call that art. Art is used for entertainment, and often specifically art for arts's sake (the stuff they put in art galleries).
     
  5. Auger

    Auger Member

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    Concept art, industrial design, and architecture are huge industries that involve consumer-oriented art.
     
  6. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Again, the definition of art varies. TBH this conversation is meaningless. It doesn't matter what we define it as as long as we have a decided definition, any version is right.
     
  7. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    Of course you can break the rules, but it might be a good idea (while you're learning) to choose a couple of forms you like and master them. Yuo don't have to abandon form to break the rules either. You can break a rhyme in an otherwise fixed form. When you do break the rules, though, the break should achieve something – provoke a thought, an image, an emotion.

    That video I posted earlier, Kate Tempest, at times she sounds like she's rapping, but she's following classical forms closely (masterfully).

    I would respectfully suggest that, while you're starting out, you not worry about nebulous discussions of what is art? It's an interesting question, and a great way to waste a lot of time not writing. ;)
     
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  8. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    Thank you @GuardianWynn & @Wayjor Frippery. I just needed a mental backup. I love hubby but he's a factual by the rules sort, he's also my editor of sorts, so we have lots of arguments about my writing. hehe

    And hey, that's not me! That's @GuardianWynn @Auger & @Oscar Leigh having a debate about art!

    My own definition of art is very broad and all encompassing - it especially includes the Architecture (big love there!). So I'm good.

    I'm fussing about the rules applicable to art. ;-)

    But I have to argue. Any construct of art must elicit emotion. Without it, it's just a thing no one cares about.
     
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  9. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    [I know ;)]
     
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  10. Auger

    Auger Member

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    By that metric, most of concept art and industrial design wouldn't be art. For example, a chair design. In the design industry, art is just one of a thousand steps to create a consumer product, video game, movie, etc.

    Whether or not something elicits emotions varies with every person, and that kinda defeats the purpose of language.
     
  11. ChaosReigns

    ChaosReigns Ov The Left Hand Path Contributor

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    If you can, also take a look at Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained by John Milton, it is definitely a pair of poems that strikes as an interesting setup (being entirely in blank verse)
     
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  12. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I think your the one with the faulty metric. Personally, my last message was phrased poorly but I was tired and on my phone. So allow me to reply a bit more in-depth.

    The issue is you're taking something intended to be abstract way too literal. Perfect example, a person at worked talked about a painting that sold for like a million dollars, he was referencing how he thought it was silly and didn't think of it as art. Thing is, I don't think he was wrong. I think the piece did look silly. That's the point it is subjective.

    So, how about @LinnyV she has a good description of art, just let me rephrase what it sounded like she said. Art is defined by explicting an emotion. Which is why it is subjective. It is also why her husband my be a bit too much a stickler for the rules. As if it doesn't explict the right emotion he might be looking at just the objective use of rules over the emotional response. Which isn't exactly bad, it can be useful part of critique.

    This I think it fits the subjectivity of art.

    Another issue I have with what you said is this, the "science of design" is sort of worthless. For one, the immediate counter is, some painters throw paint randomly at a canvas, it is a thing. That is pretty non-designed. Is that not art? Unless you are saying chaos is a design, but then, what isn't a design? At that part you can call a forest the design of nature. When does this end? It encompasses so much that it becomes a useless term.

    Art is by this definition different to everyone because everything exclicts a different emotional response to everyone.
     
  13. Auger

    Auger Member

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    I'm trying to create a system in which art can be universally defined - an objective measurement of subjectivity, if you will. You can choose whether or not to accept it; I just see no flaws in the system as of now.

    What I meant by design is that there is a goal behind the work. The goal is objective and set by the creator. That could be to elicit an emotion, create a consumer product, or to win a war. Whether or not that goal is achieved varies from person to person, and that is the subjectivity of art. If the goal is achieved, it is objectively good art.

    For example, if a person splashes paint onto a canvas with the intention of eliciting an emotion, then it is art. Remove the intent, and it ceases to be art.
     
  14. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    As long as you understand the irony of trying to force a subjective object into an objective form of measure.

    The thing is though, I still find your use of words troublesome. So, if the goal is to sell a comsumer product and that goal fails. Then it isn't art? Just to check your definition.

    The thing is, isn't that just called success or failure? I mean, if the goal is achieved, than you succeeded! Why does the succesful design need to be called art. Why not, just successful design?
     
  15. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    As a lover of chairs and have gone through periods of obsessively buying chairs, I would say they elicit emotion because I love the design of them. Seeing them in my home elicits an emotion at their beauty. I can also appreciate concept art and industrial design and they too elicit emotion. And using language with the goal of eliciting emotion is one of purpose of language. Your whole statement above makes no sense to me and feels to be arguing nothing if I were honest, other than us telling the you the obvious...Which you then need to argue about. Weird..

    But this is a fair comment and really is just you going in circles. Even in your latest example, when you strip it all back, art can only be defined by whether it elicits emotion. It may be a pre-requisite or goal on outset, but it will still be what will make us each identify if something is art or not. None of us are arguing it is subjective. Only you seem to be. So really, you are arguing with yourself. Really weird...
     
  16. Auger

    Auger Member

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    Yeah, but then literally everything elicits emotion, and by extension, everything is art. Art just becomes a synonym for "thing".
     
  17. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    That is true because we can literally use the word 'artful' on anything. It comes down to the individual to decide what is worth exclaiming and making a big fuss about. There's art and then there's ART. :superthink: But it is always subjective. I guess the measure of good art is how much emotion it elicits and from how many people and how much fuss is made because of it. :p
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2016
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  18. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    It's really not so complicated that we need to be debating it on a poetry thread @Auger. I'd much prefer you be artful and write your argument/dilemma in poetry form... Or just write some poetry on Architecture, Industrial or Concept design. That is way more interesting
     
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  19. Auger

    Auger Member

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    My main problem with the word
    is that its meaning often gets blurred
    When we have too many words that mean the same
    it just gets kinda lame
    Eskimos have like a billion words for snow
    and that's not a direction I want to see English go
     
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  20. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @Auger - I enjoyed reading that. It gave me my first smile of the morning and has me pondering.... Thank you. :)
     
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  21. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    Tired argument. [Myth]

    English is one of the most fluid and dynamic languages around.

    [Shall I list all the words the English have for 'rain'?]
     
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  22. Auger

    Auger Member

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    Huh. It is pretty fluid. no pun intended
    I just searched up synonyms for rain, and some of the results google provided were "wet stuff" and "window washer".
     
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  23. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    *smacks @Wayjor Frippery visciously hard*

    This is a poetry thread so I hope you don't start too! Unless, you plan to list the many words of "rain" in poetic form - in that case proceed. :agreed:

    This thread will start going wonky and weird soon... :ohno:
     
  24. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    Sorry, you're right. I got angry and exploded. Happens to the best of us.

    There is a poem in this train wreck. Maybe one of us can dig it out. ;)

    Back to the verse...!
     
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  25. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @Wayjor Frippery & @Auger - on further thought, ignore me.

    I think the use of language in poetry is very important, as is the acknowledgement of subjectivity. I don't mean to stomp all over an expression of an opinion.

    My wish is that it is expressed in a way in this thread that us novices (me really) can comprehend or get value for in poetry writing. So if either of you felt there was anything about language that is of interest and needs to be noted then I'd love to know, as I am sure others.
     

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