If there were a pill to make me straight, I would not take it

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by A.M.P., Jun 9, 2015.

  1. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    Don't shut up, Linny. Again, you've expressed yourself with compelling clarity.

    nail+head=hit
     
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  2. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

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    @LinnyV
    Not to say homophobia and racism are the same but if you understand what it's like being treated different based on something you can't help, then you can imagine or have some notion of either/or, right?
    Mistreatment based on something you can't help (sexuality/skin color) hurts the same, I would think.

    I don't believe there is something to fix but there is a large portion of the world that does think being gay can be fixed.
    And it's something young teenagers learning about their sexuality are very acutely aware of.
    They know about shock therapy, straight camps, about curing the gay through prayer, and so on.
    This "fix" is a part of gay culture.

    It doesn't make sense to think we can fix "black skinned people" because we live in a world where that isn't an actual thing.
    However, there are many "fixes" to being gay.
     
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  3. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    Tell that to Michael Jackson.

    ETA: You have a clear argument, A.M.P., but I agree with Linny – by posing your OP question, you're feeding the very things you (we) hate.

    ETA2: [Searching for my own clarity] Wouldn't 'Have you ever felt...?' be a better frame than 'If there were...'? Just a thought.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2016
  4. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, I always found that weird. Particularly considering he wrote a song with the lyrics "it don't matter if you're black or white". Why would you change something that doesn't matter?
     
  5. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    From what I've heard, Michael Jackson was no saint, but his autopsy confirmed he had vitiligo, a condition which causes a lightening of the skin's natural pigmentation. I've read that the loss of pigmentation was behind his famous "one glove" look, as the condition frequently begins in the hands.
     
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  6. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Vitilgo is portional. He had to have surgery to be entirely white. And he fiddled with other features as well, that fit perfectly with the idea of him trying to look white.http://abcnews.go.com/2020/MichaelJackson/story?id=7982236&page=1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo.
     
  7. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Definitely true on the surgery, but depending on how far the vitiligo had spread, it might have been easier for him to cover the remaining dark areas than the light ones. Not really defending him, but not everything about him was self-inflicted.
     
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  8. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, I have to put up my hands and say that my comment was based on hearsay rather than fact, so maybe it wasn't helpful.
     
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  9. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    I wouldn't sweat it, he had enough issues going on that it was pretty hard to separate fact from rumor.
     
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  10. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    The way I read it was that A.M.P.'s premise was what Linny said: everyone should be accepted as they are, which is the premise basically everyone here would most likely agree with because we want to make each other feel accepted, loved, and respected. As long as you aren't hurting anyone, you should be allowed to be yourself (but we don't need to tolerate intolerance, duh). This is something we would basically take for granted and this is the premise we all accept. Moving on from there, we're now having a thought experiment: "If you could live your life as straight, would you do it? I know I wouldn't." So it's not a promotion of a quick fix idea. Or anti-promotion of it. The way I see it it's more like a promotion of the age old adage "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger": despite all the hardships, I wouldn't have it any other way because this is who I am -- and I'm proud of who I am. It's not me who needs to look in the mirror and change, but the society I live in. This thought process can give strength to people who are not yet readily accepted in every culture and it may help them to push away this feeling of having to apologize for or be ashamed of who or what they are.

    That's just my interpretation anyway.
     
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  11. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Yes. :superagree: (Although I'd add or being stupid to the as long as).
     
  12. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    @KaTrian, I agree with everything you've said.

    I think the problem (and it's an insidious one) is the language used to frame the thought experiment. If you ask someone, 'would you take a pill to make the hurt go away?', you are tacitly accepting the presence of the hurt. Perhaps a less contentious question would be, 'would you consider abandoning your humanity to make the hurt go away?' The tacit truth, before the question is even answered, is now that the hurt is something unacceptable.

    Perhaps I'm splitting hairs. But split ends lead to a frizzy mess, which, if left unchecked, means you'll have to shave your head...
     
  13. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    @A.M.P.

    Okay, one last stab at this, because this is out of my comfort zone. I'm not here for deep analysis but I got caught up with the 'premise', because as @Wayjor Frippery rightly understood me, I take issue with the language used.

    If we genuinely care about change then it has to start with changing people's perception. The dialogue used is an important component of that. At work, I am always having to deal with users fearful of change. My managers are forever coaching me on the subtlety of language used to facilitate this change. I am terrible in that I often just tell it how it is... But when I pay attention, I see the magic work. They are calmer and they are accepting.

    So be it the gay culture, society in general and more importantly the next generation, if you insist on using the language such as that in the OP to bring across a point, know that you are perpetuating the very views you do not want. You may know what you are saying, but others may misinterpret. And if they don't misinterpret, they may simply just parrot.

    So there you go... let's all discuss this mythical mystical pill that we would never want to take...what did it do again? Oh, that's right, it fixed gayness. Gayness needed to be fixed? Of course not... So why are we having this conversation? I have no idea. But it's like a hot topic at the moment.

    What you did was underscore a miracle pill and all your problems could go away. I just can't see the value in that. I will leave this thread thinking...Miracle pill that fixed gayness that gay people should not want to take... Next time I see this gay gentleman, which might be tomorrow, I'm going to mention this Miracle pill and ask about his thoughts. I will probably ask every gay person I meet from now on the same question. See what you started?

    All I read is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the dialogue doesn't change why would we expect any progression? And I have to wonder if you are not further burdening those younger than you with your own baggage. But if you are saying that the idea of fixing gayness is prevalent, then you might want to consider if you are part of the problem.

    If I am offensive then I sincerely apologize. We can express ourselves however we want, but I do really question if this is the best approach.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2016
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    It's a cultural issue to think that homosexuality is more of a "problem" than any sort of sexuality, really.

    I mean, if we're just talking about making life easier? It would be easier for most people, gay or straight, to become asexual. We wouldn't be plagued by our desires anymore; politicians wouldn't fall into sex scandals; marriages wouldn't be ruined by affairs; etc.

    But how many straight, sexual people would take that pill? Our sexual desires, as annoying as they can so often be, are an integral part of how we experience our lives and our selves. I have read accounts from some people who get old and lose their desires and feel liberated, but I assume that was a gradual change, allowing the people to adjust as they went and form new identities for themselves absent desire. Taking a pill? I would be significantly more productive, focused, and quite possibly more happy if I wasn't distracted with sexual desire. I accept that - but there's no way I'd take the pill.
     
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  15. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    And that is what has me so boggled...why are we discussing a pill no one in their right mind would want to take, and more importantly, why are we linking it specifically to homosexuality? Why are we having this debate?

    Anyways, I am sure this gay colleague will set me right. He is no nonsense and hilarious, I just need to figure out how to ambush him with my miracle pill question...
     
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  16. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Oh yes, it's getting a bit complicated, and honestly, my brain just started crapping out. :D

    But basically when I entered this conversation, I already took it for granted that the society/intolerant people have to be fixed, that being gay is not wrong and it's not something that can be fixed or needs to be fixed. I saw this thought experiment as a way of understanding that even though your sexual orientation in a roundabout way makes you hurt, you are not to blame, and if society accepted you the way you are, the hurt would not be there. And while it is wrong you're not accepted the way you are, having gone through hardship can be turned into a strength. Finding ways to turn it into a strength is important because right now homosexuals face discrimination, so coping mechanisms are needed.

    The message I glean from this: you don't need to apologize. You don't need to feel ashamed. You don't need a pill no matter how tempting it may feel in your darkest moment -- because you have done nothing wrong. By asking yourself, "would you take the pill", you coax out questions like "would it really be worth it?" "Would things really be better?" "Is it right that it's me who has to change?" and it's questions and doubts like these that crowd your head when you belong to a group that's either oppressed or treated with prejudice or whatever. Answering them can make you stronger and help you cope and understand who you are. So I'm not sure if this kind of experiment actually feeds the thing we hate i.e. perpetuates the idea that homosexuality can and should be fixed. Like, that's not really the message I get, but yeah, that's just me.
     
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  17. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, I think you may be underestimating the negativity a lot of gay people feel because of being gay. There's a lot of discrimination, a lot of pressure to conform, shattered families, etc. None of this is directly related to homosexuality, but the prejudice some LGBT people face is staggering.

    There are lots of historical examples of black people "passing" as white - they chose to reject their more "natural" identities, and in some cases hid family, etc., in order to get by in a world full of prejudice. There are lots of gay people living in the closet, afraid of the consequences of being open about their identities. There are gay people living in places where they can be killed by the government if they don't hide their identities. I don't think any of these people would be out of their right minds if they chose to "take the pill". I mean, I think it's tragic that they'd feel forced to do so, but me denouncing the tragic circumstances doesn't do a hell of a lot to make things easier for these people.

    We're currently in a pretty good place, at least in most Western countries, in terms of gay rights. There's a lot of work still to be done, but we're getting there. And even with that, the suicide rates of LGBTQ teens is dramatically higher than that of their straight peers. More gay teens are kicked out of their homes than straight teens. More gay teens experience physical and emotional abuse than gay teens. So, in our golden age of gay rights, it's still really hard to live in our world as a gay person.

    Again, this isn't because of a problem with being gay. It's because of our world. But that's the only world gay people can live in.

    I hope gay people wouldn't want to take the pill. But if they did, it would be because of a problem with us, not a problem with them.
     
  18. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    Exactly.

    Referring back to myself a few posts ago, this question, 'would you take a pill to make the hurt go away?', can lead to ambiguous answers. One possible answer is, 'yes, I would take the pill because I hate myself for being this way', which is not, without question, an answer a tolerant society should accept.

    But this question, 'would you consider abandoning your humanity to make the hurt go away?', can only be answered in the explicit knowledge that it represents an unacceptable choice.

    This is a fascinating discussion, but this is where I check out. I've resorted to high-minded arguments to make my point, which is a pity (with me being the one to blame), given that this is such an emotive subject.

    We (our oh-so-tolerant western societies) still have an awfully long way to go. I do hope we get there.
     
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  20. VynniL

    VynniL Contributor Contributor

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    I very much appreciated that you took the time to write this, and for me, it really brings home the fact that this is the world we are currently living in.

    Of the lovely gay people I know, almost all of them seem so happy. Having said that, I also talk to cheerful un-gay people who when I have paused to ask "So how is your life" type questions, they have told me of tragedies that have me speechless. I'm also someone who will not hesitate to ask intrusive questions and even my manager just said yesterday I was a 'disturbed' and unhealthily nosy. It's said with great affection of course. But what I am trying to highlight, is that I've realized that as someone who people open up to very easily, I have never spoken to a gay person about their personal life or inquire about their difficulties. I've only recently got this stuff from forums! This bothers me greatly.

    This discussion has also been good in making me think back on my own behavior on homosexuality and how I talk about it. I'm ashamed to admit, I am not happy with my conduct and can see improvements in many places.

    But if anything, it makes me even more stubborn on the matter.

    As you said, in some countries it's dangerous to be gay, and this, I am very aware. And it is understandable when people for the matter of survival in those situations may hide what is core to them.

    But as you also said, we're in a much better place in our own countries. So why should we perpetuate a discussion of miracle pills and ponder about taking it or not? Granted, I can appreciate why more from this discussion. Still, I firmly believe for change to take place, what is communicated needs to change for the future generations. That future, I would hope would be teens growing up in a place where the idea of a pill to change their core anything is not something that is even considered.

    I can't speak for how people express themselves, and to each their own on how they handle their own brand of obstacles in life. If asked, I would say, I love being Chinese and would not have it any other way. My little girls see that they are different in that they are mixed heritage. I've mentioned it to a few people before, but one of the saddest moments for me as a mother was when one of my daughters said to me, "Mummy, I am half normal and half Chinese." I will continue to tell them that they are lucky to be Chinese. There will be no mentions of miracle pills. And if they turn out to be gay, it will be the same. I don't believe in indulging such notions (even used to refute it) in spite of the hardships we may suffer. It's just not the way I live my life and my preference is that we don't teach our children to think that way.

    I'm also checking out but I do appreciate the insight I've been given here. And for what it's worth @A.M.P. it's been a good discussion for my own education.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2016
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  21. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

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    @LinnyV
    That was the entire point of the... rant/speech thing I posted.
    To give people a better idea of what it means to be gay and how it affects their day to day life.
    It's not as simple as one sleeps with same genders and other doesn't (Although, that is exactly what it should be and nothing more)
     
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  22. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    If there was a pill to make me an accountant with a nice big house, a golf club membership, a moderately attentive wife, dull children at university studying medicine, dinner parties at the weekends, cruise liner holidays, a self-righteous political perspective, I would take about six of those pills.
     
  23. Auger

    Auger Member

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    I don't get the controversy behind genetic control and identity politics. If changing what sex you find attractive somehow "corrupts your genetic identity", then an operation that fixes genetically inherited eyesight would also do the same.
     
  24. FireWater

    FireWater Senior Member

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    I just wanted to say that, as someone who is in the recent process of realizing that I'm probably gay, I appreciate this thread very much.
     
  25. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Welcome to the club! :cheerleader::cheerleader:
    [​IMG]
     
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