I'm told my dialogue is too "on the nose"

Discussion in 'Dialogue Development' started by Ryan Elder, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    She's obviously, obviously, reassuring the lawyer that she kept her mouth shut and that she will not in any way help convict the kidnapper. What else could she possibly mean? Would a kidnapping victim seriously tell the police nothing? Nothing at all? What, did they have amnesia that lasted from before the kidnapping to after it was over? Of course a kidnap victim would have a huge amount of information to tell the police. It might not be useful information, but it would be information. Heck, the amnesia would be a big, startling piece of information.
     
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I really struggle to believe that it "worked", except perhaps in the sense of, "And the woman forgave me for it and didn't instantly walk away."
     
  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    OK, let's parse this:

    "what did you tell them"

    Not, "what happened?" Not, "What did your kidnapper look like?" Not, "What was the sequence of events?" Not, "Are you sure about that description?" There's absolutely no interest whatsoever in the information itself. There's no interest whatsoever in finding out whether the information points to his client or not to his client. The only interest is in what information was communicated to the police. There's a very strong vibe of, "Of the facts that we both know to be true, what have you told and what have you kept secret?"

    And the police are "them." Not "the police." Not "the prosecutor." Not "the DA." No, it's "them." When Person A and Person B refer to "them", that clearly implies that Persons A and B are a "we."

    And the woman doesn't say, "Well, I told them that I was walking out of the house, and I heard this noise in the bushes, and..." No. She said that she told them nothing and that when she gets to court she's going to say nothing.

    Again, the lawyer might as well have told the cop, "Excuse me; this woman is a part of the criminal organization that I'm defending. Hang on a sec while I make sure that she has her lies straight." And the woman may as well have told the cop, "Yep; hang on just a sec while I reassure my boss's lawyer that I'm not going to give any evidence against him."

    It's that totally obvious.

    Ryan, I do realize that you are of course trolling us. Because I really can't believe that you can't see how obvious this is. You say something so transparently implausible that I snap and break my resolve not to respond to your threads. I've always had a problem with giving up on explaining things to people. Your impenetrable brick wall of non-understanding is bait that I apparently just can't resist, even though I know it's not real.
     
  4. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay then. Well I rewrote the scene between the lawyer and her a long time ago, since I started this thread. Now the lawyer calls her on the phone, as I have it currently written, when she is alone.

    Basically the lawyer is defending one of the gang members who is arrested, and the woman is a witness technically. But lawyers are allowed to talk to witnesses. So even if the cop doesn't hear the conversation is it that obvious, since lawyers are allowed to talk to witnesses?

    I don't mean to troll or come off as implausible in my storytelling. Perhaps it's just my way of thinking. I am not the most logical person in real life perhaps, and I maybe need to learn not to apply that to my characters. But either way, that lawyer scene is gone now, so it's not an issue.
     
  5. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Unless what Ryan means by 'flirtatious and aggressive' is 'easy' - I (and i'm sure most men) have in the past encountered girls who are basically looking to get laid by the first man who shows them any interest .. in that circumstance you can use whatever arrogant, cheesy, or improbable line you like and it will 'work' because she really doesn't care what is you say to her so long as you've a penis and a pulse.

    Its like with the Neil Strauss book "the game" most of the cheesy crap the various pick up artists pedal as a sure fire way to 'pick up chicks' - "being cocky funny" for example - doesn't have a snow flake in hell's chance of working with girls who aren't basically looking to get picked up (as he discovers right at the end, when he concludes that its because "its not a game" )

    Personally I've never found any form of 'line' to be a worthwhile approach compared to just treating them as people and being funny and charming.

    However , regardless of what works or doesn't work for Ryan , or me or anyone else, the issue at hand is not whether it works in real life , but whether it works as dialogue , and in the circumstance laid out it just doesn't ring true
     
  6. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    What is the purpose of the conversation though - if they are working together he already knows what she told the police , and if they arent he will find out through disclosure anyway.

    Also Lawyers are allowed to interview potential witnesses - although they mostly use investigators to do it for them - but they arent allowed to harass them , so as soon as she says she doesn't want to speak to him the 'interview' is over
     
  7. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. Since the woman approached the guy first, wasn't she looking to get picked up though?

    As for the lawyer scene, I can cut it or change it. If everything is laid out in disclosure, then why do lawyers talk to witnesses, before court dates then? And no, he doesn't know what she told the police. She just came from the station, so he is still yet to find out. But I can write it so that he calls her later, if that's better.
     
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Are you aware that, in history, there have been times when women have spoken to men without having sex as an immediate goal? Really, it's happened quite often. And sometimes a relationship exists for more than an hour, sometimes even more than a day, before sex happens.

    And even if she was open to the encounter progressing past conversation in the very near future, scary-creepy arrogance is scary-creepy arrogance.

    Better than letting the police know that she's one of his criminal confederates? Yeah. That would be better.
     
  9. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. I can write it so it's less creepy, if that's the case. Plus it was a flashback. Whether or not they have sex right away is not specified, but they have been together for long term, since it was a flashback.

    How is it that the lawyer is tipping the cop off? It's normal for a lawyer to ask a witness questions in the case, or so I was told in my legal research.
     
  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I explained that very thoroughly. Perhaps you should read the posts by people who posted in your thread. Just as a novelty.
     
  11. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I've changed the story a lot since I wrote this draft, with this dialogue. I got confused and went back and reread the scene. Manning is on the scheme with the lawyer as well. So it doesn't matter what the lawyer says in front of him.
     
  12. EnginEsq

    EnginEsq Member

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    You may need to actually experience a little of the world, and interact with real people, before you can write fiction worth reading.
    Just a thought.
     
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  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah. Ryan, in the end I think that it's almost guaranteed that you're going to scrap this piece. You'd really be better off to start a new piece about elements of life that you're familiar with.
     
  14. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well I am not familiar with anything interesting or extraordinary. I mean lots of fiction writers go out of their element, as long as they do the research, which is what I am doing.

    Plus I've been approached and picked up by women before, so I am going by those experiences, and those people.
     
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You're not. You're really not. You're asking many questions, and understanding none of the answers.
     
  16. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Am I not understanding all the answers? I got a lot of good advice on here and applied it to the story, and the story is better now, at least it seems to be in the parts that I have improved. So I thought I understood a good amount of the advice.
     
  17. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    I approach many men in my day to day life. Do you know how many I want to "pick up"? ZERO
     
  18. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay. Is there a problem with women picking up men? I mean some do it, some prefer it the other way around. But is is so bad of a woman to do that, or what is the problem?
     
  19. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    No, the problem is the presumption that if a woman approaches a man it's because she has PantsFeelings for him.

    I'm not looking to pick up men, nor for them to pick me up. Sometimes I just have to interact with them professionally or socially, and it's nice and astonishingly unusual when it's not assumed that it has anything to do with romantic or sexual interest.
     
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  20. EnginEsq

    EnginEsq Member

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    Regardless of whether something is common in real life, assuming a woman approaching a man is always or usually looking for sex makes for IMHO boring fiction, especially if the man thinks the woman is trying to bed him and turns out to be correct. It's much more interesting when people get their signals crossed.
     
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  21. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well what if I write so that she is sexually attracted to him but is just looking for a date and not sex then? She can still flirt and pick him up though, right?
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Sigh.
     
  23. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Or, you know, she could totally be interacting with him on a professional or social basis with no interest in dating at all.

    MIND

    BLOWN
     
  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    INCONCEIVABLE!
     
  25. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    MEN AND WOMEN

    TALKING TO EACH OTHER

    AND IT'S NOT ABOUT GETTING A DATE

    OR INTO EACH OTHER'S PANTS

    HUMAN SACRIFICE

    DOGS AND CATS LIVING TOGETHER

    MASS HYSTERIA
     
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