I'm told my dialogue is too "on the nose"

Discussion in 'Dialogue Development' started by Ryan Elder, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well what is wrong with getting a date? If someone will tell me what is wrong with it, then I could understand the advice better. I haven't been told what is wrong with it, I have just been told that many women do not do it. What is actually wrong with it?

    Why should my character act that way? I haven't really been given a 'why', I have only been given that they 'should' act that way. But why?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    The problem with your scene is the creepy-stalker line the guy is using. The problem with your attitude is your assumption that a woman who talks to a man is doing so because she wants sex with him NOW NOW RIGHT NOW, no matter what, no care who he is, not even if he is a creepy stalker.

    The problem with your novel is the constant focus on sex without any associated understanding--including the wildly false idea that rape is about sex.
     
  3. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Sweet baby Jesus.

    There is nothing wrong with getting a date. Or hooking up/having sex.

    But that it not the main reason that women and men interact with each other. We approach each other for so many other reasons - like 99% of the time women and men talk to each other for reasons that have nothing to do with romantic or sexual interest. Please explore the reasons for the other 99% and perhaps your horizons might be expanded.
     
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  4. EnginEsq

    EnginEsq Member

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    Your characters can do anything you want. The question is will the reader find it interesting and believable, and does it further the plot, characterization, or scene-setting? In good fiction, nothing happens that doesn't somehow matter to the story.

    So WHY, from a story perspective, is the woman approaching him? If it's just to show your MC is a promiscuous stud, don't expect people to give a damn, unless being a man-slut is an important element of his character (as it is for James Bond, for example). Or are you just living out your adolescent fantasies in print form? If the latter, that doesn't usually result in something that interests anyone else.

    Romance is far more interesting than sex in my opinion, both in fiction and in real life.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
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  5. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Yes I know that men and women approach each other for different reasons. But why does this particular scenario have to be that of the 99% you are talking about? Why can't this scenario be the 1% of why a woman and a man would talk each other. Plus this is just one small scene. This is not the whole story. Do I have to have the entire story be for that 99%?

    Well I can change it so she doesn't want sex with him and just wants to get his number for a date later. But you say that that is bad as well. So what is good? I take sex out of it, and just make it a sexless date, and you still say it's bad.

    As for the rape material, there is only one rape scene, and the other rapes are told from the police's point of view, in aftermath. So altogether we are talking about maybe 5-10 pages of material dealing with rape. All the rest of the pages are about other things going on in the story. So it's not the whole story.

    Am I writing in cliches too much?
     
  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    A woman being pleased by a creepy arrogant come-on line is far less than one percent of male/female interaction. Why is your heart set on the creepy? Why can't he be, say, likable?
     
  7. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well I am writing based on a real situation of my own experience. However, the woman was at a pub, so maybe her drinking, helped? I could set it in a pub, if that's better.

    Is it just the one end line that is creepy? If I change it is that better? Or is her approaching him to get his number, or a date, a problem as well?
     
  8. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Well it can. But when it comes to authenticity, I'd expect something more from the 99% column than the 1%. Because statistics. And math.

    Also reading about male/female relationships that aren't centered around them bumping uglies is refreshing as oppose to tired and cliched.
     
  9. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well what if I wrote the scene so she approached him to get a date, but he didn't make any reference to her experiencing him or implied sex to her at all? Is that better? Cause then she picks him up for date, but it would be a date with no sex, but still showing an attraction and romantic interest. Is that better?
     
  10. EnginEsq

    EnginEsq Member

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    Why is it there? IMHO Something like rape doesn't belong in fiction as padding. Either the story can't exist without it, or it shouldn't be there.

    I have an incident in my story where a teenager is nearly beaten to death. I don't describe it, I describe people's reaction and the aftermath. It's an important event in the MC's growth, their first encounter with sadistic brutality - they aren't the victim by the way. But still, I don't describe it, not even the details of the injuries. If you're the kind of person the enjoys reading the details of a brutal assault on a bound young woman, you're not my target audience.
     
  11. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, because if you set it in a pub I'm sure you could couch it that her consent was blurred somehow. WOW

    I need to be drinking to deal with this entire thread. Super glad there's no creepy guys in the vicinity though.
     
  12. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I don't mean to imply that her consent would be blurred, it's just she be more bold and risky if it were in that type of setting. Well what about if I didn't set it in a pub, and she still approached him the same way, but he gave her a better line. Is that better?

    Am I a creepy guy though, are you implying? All I did was base this off a situation where a woman approached me, said some similar things, got my number, and we went out on a date later. Is that so creepy of me?
     
  13. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    What if they don't interact in a romantic or sexual way at all? Would you be willing to explore that possibility? That men and women could, I don't know, meet and not want to bone, or fall in love, or both?

    GROUNDBREAKING /Miranda Priestly Voice

    Also better lines don't really influence how likely a woman is likely to be interested in you. If you're her jam then she may be in to sin; if not, there's no "line" that will make you more palatable. It's not you, it's me.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I am unable to believe that that line really appealed to anyone.
     
  15. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well I said it in a jokey way and the woman laughed. She said "Oh, so being with you is going to make me take up smoking, uh?" She just kidded with me back and laughed, talked some more, and exchanged numbers. So she thought it was funny.

    I am willing to explore it if I know why I am writing that way. I just feel I have been given a suggestion without a why, that's all. I could write it differently, but I don't know why I am changing the character though. They become involved and fall for each other later, which plays into the story, so if they are not going to fall for each other, I just want to know why the change... that's all.
     
  16. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Please feel free to write your story however you want. Don't change the character or anything else if you don't want to.

    But when you ask people for their opinions and they say your idea is unappealing or off-putting, take them at their word and move on. Because that's exactly what your readers will do if you ever manage to get published. They don't have to tell you why they don't like your book, they'll just give it a crappy rating on Amazon, Goodreads, etc.
     
  17. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Sorry, I don't mean to reject any advice. A lot of the advice has helped so far and the story is better from before, so I thank everyone.

    It's just sometimes I do not know the 'why', of why I am making the change, so I just need to know why, otherwise I don't know why I am doing it, and if I don't know why I am changing it to something else, then the story could suffer as a result.

    It's not that I don't want to hear the advice, I just want to hear more of the why, in a good way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  18. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Dude, you need to know why your characters are behaving the way they do and own it. I can't imagine if you were in the editing process with a publisher that you wouldn't get eaten alive. You need to decide what hills you're willing to die on.
     
  19. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well I know why the characters are doing what they are doing, and where it is all going for the story. But you said that I shouldn't have the character do it, so I am interested in hearing why I should change it now.
     
  20. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Why do you GAF what I think? I told you that I find it unrelatable and unauthenitc. If those don't do it for you I got nothing.
     
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  21. ShannonH

    ShannonH Senior Member Contest Winner 2023

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    Whilst I have previously mentioned my enjoyment of the car crash element of Ryan's threads, I have to admit I'm growing somewhat jealous of the amount of time he has dedicated to him.

    This workshop thread is now on its fourth page whereas my last entry didn't manage to garner one response.

    Ryan may be thick, obtuse or stubborn but it's working well for him.
     
  22. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Hang about - a woman approached you and said similar things - earlier you were saying that you approached her used that creepy line and it worked ?

    If it was the woman that used the line on you it is a bit different because of the 'all men are dogs' theory of life (that is men are much more likely to want to 'get picked up' with sex as an end game than women are) I don't entirely subscribe to that , but that's because when i was looking to meet girls my end goal was a relationship , not some pneumatic action at the nearest motel.

    anyway focussing on the script - as i said before the problem isnt whether or not it happened in real life - the problem is that they arent meeting in a local meat market/pick up joint , so she's not giving him signals before he uses the line.

    the other issue is the illogic of the line itself "most women don't take up smoking til they've experienced me" - I mean seriously, what ? leaving aside the creepy weirdo stalker alarm signals what does that actually mean , after they've 'experienced' him they take up smoking , why ? how is a night of hot sex related to taking up smoking ... it isn't , hence why no one would actually say that to a girl in the first place.
     
  23. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    The problem being that people are repeatedly telling you that your story is implausible in every way that matters and riven with plot holes - so yes you know why people are acting as they do in the context of a ridiculous plot full of unbelievable characters interactng in unbelievable ways and exchanging implausible dialogue

    The reason you should change it now , if you wish to take the critique received on board , is to make the story less implausible, unbelievable, wooden etc ... of course if you don't want to take the critique on board then that's fine , its your work, and a free country , but if you don't want critique do us a favour and stop asking for it
     
  24. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Pats Shannon on the head :friend: The reason for that is the overiding attraction of watching it unfold before our eyes - its like a car crash on a motorway (freeway to our US brethren) , your driving might be much better , but all eyes are on the out of control juggernaut sliding sideways into the bridge abuttment :D *strolls off to find Shannon's workshop post*
     
  25. ShannonH

    ShannonH Senior Member Contest Winner 2023

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    And it's something I'm guilty of myself; I always relish one of these threads and the car crash entertainment we've alluded to.
     

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