Improvement / Change

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by laciemn, Jan 6, 2011.

Tags:
  1. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    all genres have their good and bad. There is just more fantasy than most genres (think NaNo the fantasy board has as many posts over the November as all the other genre boards put together usually). Therefore fantasy has more bad it also has more good work than any other genre.
     
  2. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    20
    I mentioned in a thread that I knew a guy who came from a very sad and heinous background who frequently wanted to kill himself, but he told me he didn't want to because he looked forward to Star Wars games and other fun material. It completely changed my opinion on the value of fantasy and potentially fluffy material.

    Imagine how you'd feel if you found your story had actually saved someone's life and they can't wait until you write you next book about dragon babies or whatever. I think it would be awesome.
     
  3. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    not sure why Fantasy is fluffy ? It exercises the imagination for both writer and reader in a way no other genre can - this is what can truly save lives or at very least sanity, it has been used as method of warding off depression since the dawn of time, there is now evidence that suggests Neanderthals may have had religion and stories - fantasy meant in the days before literacy, books, internet etc were common place stories could be told. My books didn't start out as fantasy - I had written an action adventure about the assasination of a king. One day my MC needed to do something - I was telling the story first person and needed him to be someplace he wasn't allowed to go. So I turned him into a bird lol (there was a ritual and he did it as a result of stumbling upon a sacred place and a 800 year old gentleman). My writing took on a new dimension of fun lol I have never looked back.

    I write fantasy because it exercizes my brain in a way no other genre can. Enid Blyton was a schoolteacher, Lewis and Tolkein were Oxford Dons. Agatha Christie wrote some amazing short stories on a horror/paranormal/fantasy bent. Not quite sure what Midsummer Nights Dream or the Tempest are if they are not fantasy. Even Macbeth although historical based has fantasy elements. Dr Faustus is amazing. I love the Arthurian Legends and Robin Hood etc Terry Pratchett writes humour with depth that takes an amazing talent not sure what his background is but he and incredibly intelligent man - have funny feeling he was a schoolteacher to but that could be wrong. Lian Hearne's book indicate her level of education is extensive - I don't know if it is formal or not.

    I have several general fiction books planned next and a sort paranormal detective story. However even at the vague plotting stage I am thinking why can't this happen if I do this and they are slowly turning into fantasy books, (I am generally never more organised than the Queen gets Kidnapped or King gets assasinated. My others are 17th Century Reverend his boyfriend gets deported he follows him they have shipwreck end up on island together. Old couple and child start paranormal detectve agency. Finally gay man gets woman pregnant one is an author the other and actor, they both have characters they talk to (made sense to use one of my characters for the author)).

    It is just so much fun to twist reality, I mean that is what every other genre does anyway. Not as if even a contempoary fiction book is real - the characters are usually made up and often the setting is. The same happens in fantasy, you include real elements then tweak it to make the story, just as long as you work out a context your imagination is the limit.
     
  4. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Orpington, Bromley, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    I agreed with you at the start, but disagree with the last point. I think there's about the same amount of good stuff as in any genre. All the extra fantasy stuff is unfortunately clustered around the bad end. Which means that the lover of the fantasy genre can find loads of good stuff to read, but the casual browser is unlikely to find the nuggets of gold in the heap of trash. At least traditional publication filters out most of the trash, so the balance in a traditional bookstore is probably much the same as any other genre. It's online and self-published where it gets depressing.
     
  5. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    Sorry I wasn't very clear - there is more good and bad of fantasy simply because of the sheer quantity. Percentage is probably about the same. Also I think because it does require a good degree of intelligence and education to get fantasy right I guess there is a greater potential to get it wrong.

    Whereas a Creative Writing course can prepare you for most other genres it can't possibly give you everything you need in fantasy. I know I am finding my archaeology background much more useful. Agatha Christie's interest was archaeology. Lewis and Tolkein had good grounding in history etc
     
  6. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    20
    Don't mistake me, I think fantasy and SF are vital in our world based on the story I told. We're in a semi-brutal, yet boring, time in history and having an exciting outlet and sense of wonder inducing hobby is a great thing.

    When I said "fluffy" I meant how some people perceive fantasy, etc as compared to "literature". For example, a few months ago at the gym I had a fantasy novel with me and was reading between sets. This young med student I talked to at times came up and snidely noted the book and said "you know, you ought to read the Kite Runner, etc." I then looked at him and said, "Is that the one where the kid gets raped? If you had any idea how many people I've talked to at work who got raped, then you'd understand why I stick to fantasy novels. In fact, I'll bet ten years into being a doctor you'll be watching cartoons again." I didn't say it, but I have a "real life" and have done lots of things people would write a book about, and because of that I have no desire to read books about traumas, prisons, and so on unless they're technical and to be used by me to help people.

    Wonderfully, he got what I meant instantly and we became gym buddies! I thought he had good potential.

    I think reality literature is great if you're having a nice calm life, but I don't want to read about kids getting raped when such stuff is an active part of my real life as a therapist. So, bring on the dragons and magic so that I can get a boost and charge back in to help real people.

    Also, I agree with everything you've said in your post, and then some.
     
  7. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    20
    I don't think a person who has no interest in fantasy can sit down and just bang out a really imaginative story. You have to be into it and and living it in your mind. Certainly, a disinterested but pro writer could simulate successful material and make a good book, but not a whole new creative world.
     
  8. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    I always find this odd since some of the greatest works of literature if written in 2010 would be classed as fantasy. Water Babies, Alice in Wonderland, Midsummer Nights Dream, The Arthurian Legends, Canterbury Tales, Divine Comedy, Five Children and It, Bothy Ballads, Tam O'Shanter, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty etc Discworld, Harry Potter and Tales of the Otori deserve to be in the list alongside Faraway Tree, Narnia and as much as I don't like it Hobbit/Lord of the Rings.


    Most of the greats have a background in history, archaelogy, education, a religious background (often a journey to find the religion that is correct), language. Usually all of the above. Basically something approaching a good old fashioned classical based education something we are losing in the UK. Keeping finger crossed as I have all of the above plus some science, law and psychology at degree level. lol

    Mine stands a chance of being OK. To OP to write great fantasy you basically need to read everything, everywhere - fiction, non fiction just read it.
     
  9. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    20
    It's just a combo of pretentiousness and lack of imagination.

    There's nothing wrong with loving reality based novels but when you start excluding other creative works, you're a fake. I'm a music lover and tend to like alt rock and techno, but I'm not a big fan of country. That does not mean it sucks.

    Great Book Suggestion:

    Snobbery: The American Version

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0618340734/?tag=postedlinks04-20

    Very amusing social commentary.
     
  10. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    I agree think it is important to know why you don't like something. Contempoary Literary Fiction is my only reading struggle - however I do love Maeve Binchy, L Shaped Room, David Mitchell, every so often one crops up I love. I just don't like working that hard if I am honest. I like a good story that grabs me by the metaphorical balls and transports me. Literary fiction has to work harder than most other genres to do that when it suceeds it is truly stunning.
     
  11. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Orpington, Bromley, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    I don't understand what you mean by that. People get raped in fantasy novels (Stephen Donaldson's Lord Foul's Bane springs to mind). More things are possible in fantasy than in reality, not fewer!
     
  12. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    Difference is it isn't real. It is just believable. Realistic is something you cannot hope to achieve with characters turning into birds etc.
     
  13. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    20
    If it's too obtuse for me to understand I wonder if the author just tricked me out of some money.
     
  14. Ellipse

    Ellipse Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    35
    The irony in this is that some of the strangest things you will ever hear/read about happen in the real world.

    About eight years ago I remember reading on CNN.com about a young girl in some muslim country was kidnapped and taken into the mountains. The kidnappers wanted to force her family into accepting a marriage proposal for her. One night a pack of wild mountain lions apparently heard her weeping so they chased off the kidnappers then stood watch over her until the cops arrived. The cops were able to retrieve her without any problems. The mountain lions then went about their business. Supposedly there were five kidnappers but the cops were only able to find three of them. :)

    I told some friends about the story after I read it. We all agreed the girl must be a real life druid or something. :D
     
  15. Allegro Van Kiddo

    Allegro Van Kiddo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    20
    I believe I can communicate with squirrels, so there's that too.
     
  16. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    I agree Ellipse. With fantasy when it is written well it doesn't take long to realise you have stepped away. Even if it gets horrible it is still your imagination and otherworldly bit you are using. Not everyday, no real. And it never does get as weird, horrible, amazing or as fantastically blow away - it is safe. And that is what I love about it as sickening as my book can be in places it comes right in the end and ultimately isn't real.
     
  17. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    thanks, ff!... i got the 'pm'... it was 'recs' that threw me... wish texting had never been invented!!!... or that at least it could be banned on a site that's supposed to be peopled with writers...
     
  18. laciemn

    laciemn New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2007
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    4
    Just because I use some slang or abbreviations doesn't mean I'm not a writer...
    Honestly I think it's a little odd you didn't get what I meant. It is a pretty common thing to say on the internet.
     
  19. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Orpington, Bromley, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    It's a register like any other, that the skilled writer will know how and when to use.
     
  20. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    Not to mention txt lit is a whole genre to itself complete with story competitions.
     
  21. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Orpington, Bromley, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    Well, for some types of fantasy. For some types of fantasy when it's well written you don't consciously realise at all that you've stepped away. I think the sort you are referring to is specifically escapist fantasy, not all fantasy.
     
  22. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    It doesn't have to be a conscious realisation in fact often it is not. Even with Narnia or the Faraway Tree it feels 'real' when reading.

    However your brain when you pick a book up in the fantasy section gets to work the moment you pick the book up.
     
  23. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Orpington, Bromley, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    If I pick up a Tolkien or Narnia book then yes. If I pick up a Stephen Donaldson of one of George McDonald's Gothic fantasies then no. And that doesn't mean that Donaldson and McDonald don't/didn't write well, it means that they're writing a different sort of fantasy.
     
  24. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,319
    Likes Received:
    97
    I don't know Stephen Donaldson - however George MacDonald's work has classic elements that take us from this world. If a book doesn't have anything that removes it from the world we live in then how can it be fantasy ? The Princess and Curdie has a monster. Lilith has religious elements, etc I know full well they are fantasies.
     
  25. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    'recs' may be 'pretty common' on the internet, but it's not at all common on writing sites, nor among folks of my age and even many much younger, who are 'serious' writers and don't do 'texting'...

    so i hope i can be excused for not being up on the latest crime being committed against the writer's art [my opinion, which i'm entitled to, so please don't flame me for expressing it]...
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice