Is honesty the best policy?

I may cut out the SPaG dings in future, though this is something I found, and still find, useful in error spotting and improving.

I did ask the mentioned author if my reviews were okay and twice they wrote back to say my style was as 'good as gold,' yet no interactions persisted. In the end reviewing felt like a chore in which there seemed zero benefit for either party.

But I think that is a big issue in regards to what @ps102 wrote in his reply, that and overly, well intentioned detailed reply can overwhelm a new writer, yet when revisiting these comments as notes, a writer will find many useful points they missed first time round.

Can I ask... has anyone been asked to send their thoughts on a story from a writing friend they are on good terms with. Are you more honest in your views based on the relationship you have, and did it create any division of, let's say, you found their story to be one of the weaker ones you have read from them? Have you hurt a friend's feelings because you were too honest?

 

Personally, I agree with this. Not necessarily about the "true meaning" nonsense but a line-by-line effort rarely provides much value, because it focuses on the micro, not the macro. The person is not looking at the story as a whole. It's even worse if that line-by-line is all about SPaG. 90% of SPaG can be caught by hitting F7 in Word, so such a critique is only 10% as useful. One line saying you found the transition between scenes too abrupt is more valuable than 10 spelling corrections.

Pointing out more serious, regular SPAG issues, such as tense confusion is fine, but don't waste time telling me I missed out a "u" in the word "colour".

And for goodness sakes, don't reword one of my sentences unless you can explain why you think your version is better.

I got a "critique" once on a 3000 word story which consisted of the poster telling me they didn't like one minor punctuation error.

Personally, I find that, if you critique my work like you're critiquing a newbie, it comes across to me as condescending. I'm not a professional or even necessarily an advanced writer, but I'm not a beginner either. Equally, if you're critiquing someone who you've never interacted with before, it can be hard to judge sometimes, but you can get an idea from their writing.

 

Sometimes I'd like to be honest to critiquers and ask why they even bothered to waste the bandwidth in giving the feedback that they did, but I can't really. At least they're trying, I suppose (except where they're obviously not trying).

 

My personal approach is to be constructively and respectfully honest. I'm not going to give an author grief if they do something I don't care for, but I will make a mention of it. My goal is to improve the quality of writing out in the world, not the amount of writerly confidence. That said, I am also not in the game to bring others down. That doesn't help anyone, and it makes me look bad, but also I simply don't want that in the world so therefore I don't put it out there.

Unless they deserve it

 

Thing is, that's not really being honest, that's just sharing your view on the matter. If they need to do something better, tell 'em they need to do it better.

 

On a certain thread elsewhere, people are giving honest feedback on a writer's dialogue-only writing style. It doesn't really work.

The person is taking it as a personal attack on him(?) and is lashing out at everyone, accusing them of attacking and bullying.

Yeah, honesty doesn't always work.

 

No, not on this forum - but, you know, with some people, sometimes you just know that a truly honest critique is going to be badly received, no matter how you try to couch it.

I have every confidence that the mods here would deal with it appropriately. It's one of the reasons I post here.

 

My reply here is not aimed at you, Nao, but one reason why offering an honest feedback is difficult for a reader. I feel, there are many writers who place themselves above this 'beginner' level but not quite in the stratosphere of the published polished works we all read from bookstores or elsewhere. There is this... how to best describe this, arrogance that they are above being told there are small SPaG issues that are not relevant but do not place enough effort in being specific in what they request when posting a story for feedback.

I am sure that I am not the only one who have read stories where an author writes nothing in specific in terms of what they want, some may ask a reader that they want a 'reaction' to a piece, when how a piece is written undermines the whole 'macro' feel of the story. Personally, the minor mistakes adds to many majors. View this like a driving test in England. You are allowed to make some small numbers of 'minors' but a 'major' mistake results in a failure. A person receiving no majors but incur too many minors still fail... which is how I view a story.

I have read many stories from writers who have written for centuries to newbies only just starting out, yet the established writers still make the similar mistakes to those who are just starting out. There are many stories I recall, where the use of I for 1st person writing was present in nearly start of every sentence. The use of He or She counting past the teens in three paragraphs from seasoned writers. Is pointing this out wrong?

I can see it irritating an 'established' writer which is why I like to defend a reviewer who gives their time to read to try and aid an author to improve. There is this 'arrogance' (maybe this is a strong word) that a writer feel they are exceptional (an exaggeration and not about all) because they focus and hold onto the flimsy, yet needed, positive enforcement of 'what a great story, I loved it...' talks and dismiss any slight negative in regards to structure or story line.

This is something I have been wondering ever since I started writing. It is important to gain feedback, but it is not always beneficial to get comments from anyone and everyone, thus there is a need to form alliances with writers who share your views towards writing. Over time, you share and comment on each others work... becoming a writing friend who's view you trust and leads to exactly what you have said... that worry about being too honest about flaws in your story.

I'd like to think that friends (and I mean writing friends) are a must... friends who aren't writers are not to be approached for specific feedback, though I was told that gaining the reactions to friends who do not venture into writing is beneficial in that they see a story differently to how a writer does.

So this is something I am unsure of. It is simple that if a person feels good about themselves, feel encouraged and supported, they perform better. They are more receptive and open to criticisms because they feel backed by others thus to improve writing quality is also, in my view, to support a writer's confidence.

Many here know the difficulties with writing and it is very easy to stop and literally binge watch TV and socials or play games to waste away their time, because writing can be a struggle. I used to share a forum with your good self bd (I was in .com under different names) and I am sure you will have known many writers who simply disappear because they deemed themselves 'not good enough,' when their stories do have that 'something' but also ones that needs a little work and help to polish them into its best and real form.

Honesty for new writers can be hugely damaging and I know many are very very talented, I still write to them and ask them to continue having read their stories... but they have slid away and their stories will not be seen. It's a shame.

 

Let me give you an example.

If you read something I wrote, then say "you should show, not tell" and then launch into an explanation of what show and tell means, I will get a little annoyed, although I obviously won't say anything. I know what it means, and sometimes, I will deliberately choose to tell.

On the other hand, if you say "this part would benefit from being shown, rather than told", that wouldn't irritate me at all (as long as you can explain why you think that is the case, and you're not just repeating a mantra). If I can see from an author's writing that they understand that, I wouldn't do them the disrespect of going into something so basic.

I get this in real life as well. I have a physical disability, but the fact that I'm missing a leg doesn't mean I can't put a seat belt on. I *know* the ambulance guys are trying to be helpful and are well intentioned, but don't treat me like a goddamned child.

 

The difference between a new writer doing it, and an experienced writer is that *sometimes* (certainly not always), the experienced writer is doing it deliberately. What you need to evaluate, with any piece of writing, is whether what they are doing works, not whether they are violating "rules" or received wisdom. If it works, you can gently point out that it does in that particular piece, but that under other circumstances, it might detract from the writing.

 

This reminds me of a contest story I scored on .com a couple months ago. The formatting was "incorrect" and every paragraph was jumping from present tense to past tense with two stories in two different time periods being told at the same time. I was about to take out my red marker until I realized all the "errors" were quite deliberate. It was a brilliant experimental piece, and I gave it 19.75/20.

 

IIRC, everyone else gave it a failing score though.

 

Yep, I think the other two judges gave it their lowest scores. Tragic !

 

This recalls for me a story I evaluated last April. On the first read, it seemed to be about the birth of a photon. Then I re-read it, and every sentence took on a deeper meaning. It was actually a metaphor for our life. Then, it struck me that it was brilliant. So, sometimes, one read is not enough.

 

I recall a story in the Workshop here. At first, it looked like someone had wholesale copy-pasted a series of posts from a forum and pasted into a post here, and a mod was about to delete it.

Then he read it, and it became clear that it was a story told through the medium of forum posts.

 

Well I highlighted this to the writer, who didn't realise they were doing this and it was evident that this was an early draft, the problem I find, is if a 'new' member joins and posts a story up, it is very difficult to 'see' their level. Many use AI to brush up their grammar, many also comment that they are poor writers when their writing and standard doesn't reflect this view.... even stories from really good and established writers have pushed out less than impressive stories that I have read.

Your example of 'show and tell' reminded me of a time I worked at length with a writer. During our first exchanges, I read their story and was taken back by how poorly it was written. The first chapter was 3k long and I ballooned an 11k reply as I explained, in detail, where the writing went wrong. This may seem very wrong, yet in my defense when I highlighted words that were 'telling' they wrote back asking what I meant by this. The problems with their writing was quite extensive with SPaG and story line issues that by the end of chapter 2 I had counted 35 new character names forced onto me. It was cut down to the teens in the end but this writer viewed themselves very highly and in the end my help ceased when they disliked my continued 'honesty' about their work.

 

That's not the approach I would personally have undertaken. If it's clear they don't know what it is, I would give them an article to read on it, then work through perhaps one or two examples with them, no more. I wouldn't go through and point out every example for them. That way, they will learn for themselves, and importantly, I can work through an example in more detail, to show them *why* showing would work better than telling.

Because "show, don't tell" is only a guideline. It's not a rule. There are some places where telling is appropriate. I don't hold with those people who obsessively go through their work and make sure there are no -ly words. That's doing something for the sake of doing it, without considering if it makes the story better.

But then, I'm not a mentor, nor do I try to be. I don't have the time. I'll critique, and help with specific things when asked, but I won't spoonfeed someone. That's a job for an editor, and if I was going to do that, I'd want paying.

 

I don't think it's that difficult, personally. And if I'm uncertain, I'll ask. A couple of interactions is usually enough to tell you how open and self-aware they are. If the answer to the latter is "not very", I won't waste my time, although I do sometimes out of morbid curiosity.

Sure, I get that these responses can come across like I'm saying "Hey, look how easy it is for me." That's not the intent. It's just how I personally do things. It fails as often as it succeeds.

 

I think our views don't always verge towards the same direction @Naomasa298

I wasn't saying my methods are right, I am merely writing what I did.

Not many, if any, will spend so much time on another person's work. It took me 3 days to compose and consider every point... and I do not expect others to follow this, this is how I view and treat other peoples' stories, giving them every bit of attention and care as if it were my own.

The point you made that it isn't hard to find out about a writer's level is absolutely valid, yet the point I was making is that often I have had zero interaction with that author. Some, as I am sure you will have come across, speak so highly of themselves, others put themselves down, yet often it is the latter who's works are much more polished than the braggarts. How a person receives feedback is often (I feel) based on the ego of the individual, more than how a reviewer gives feedback.

Some actually crave for the 'wow this was amazing, I love this because of this etc etc' building up a writer's confidence because they know them rather giving an honest view. I have seen writers who truly believe in their own hype, forceful if they view a story of theirs to be of great standard, yet if feedback from a few does not match the cheerleaders of their clan, then those 'outsiders' are deemed of lower quality.

I have reviewed many many writers, and it is from experience that being honest, as most advocate here, is not always the best policy. Most treat others who offer praise and point to a simple spelling mistake or line edit as proof they have been careful and considerate towards a piece when my reaction has been different.

 

On this forum at least, those types are rare. I can only really remember one, and he didn't last very long.

 

I was in .com for 3 years and there were/are a few.

 

Well, I've come across two this week. But for those people, honesty is even more important, imo. Trying to be gentle with them just massages their already overblown ego. The best policy is actually to not engage, but sometimes, I'm drawn to it like a dungbeetle to a cowpat.