Is reviewing useful if the reviewer is not well versed in the genre?

We get a lot of vacuous "attaboy" reviews, and always have. We have never done anything to stop them (except when it's clearly solely to build up post count/review count, like the exact same response in several posts over the span of minutes), but they also do not count toward satisfying the critiquing requirements.

There will always be members who do the absolute minimum work to allow them to post. However, there are also members who really work at giving high quality, thoughtful critiques. Not coincidentally, they are nearly always the member whose posted writing shows the greatest skill and the most rapid improvement.

 

Someone once told me to use a sandwich approach. Have a critique between two praises. It always helps to not only look at what a writer is doing wrong but also what they are doing right.

Yes, there are always gonna be the Bobby Knights of the world, and sometimes they are effective, but you also have to remember the level of writer we have here. We have young people who just started writing who need encouragement that they won't get from their peers. We need to at least try to encourage them enough that they don't say, 'Screw this writing stuff, I'm gonna play video games instead.'

It's a delicate balance and it's not easy to do, but the best mentors are as harsh as they are encouraging.

~ J. J.

 

I like that approach to reviewing, though I don't necessarily follow it.

 

Ya' know, I do like some of the writing here, believe it or not. I just read a great piece, the flaw was the dialog. A tad stilted. The writer made the same mistake I often do--it sounds like he is talking to himself instead of two distinct participants with differing vocabularies and inflections.

I fixed the problem by reading difficult exchanges out loud.

The issue of that piece is that the writer pulled us in, made us care. The story drifted by, effortlessly. It was a pleasure to read.

Compare that to a zombie story written by Shakespeare. Nice panties, same pig.

 

The problem with non professional reviewers, particularly aspiring writers (eg. everyone here) is that too often I find their reviews carry some hidden agenda. Attacking someone's artistic vision in support of your own is not useful criticism. Ripping apart someone for plot holes, incoherent sentences, or boring text is useful criticism. To be honest, I've seen a decent amount of the latter here, and its only the former that gets other members rightfully upset.

 

And many times I would agree, after all, I live near Madison, Wisconsin where the construction of your latte' is often interpretted as a manifesto of your politics.

But I also find the reverse of your position to also depict an agenda. To delineate my ficticious example of a poorly written zombie yarn, a member might come flying in from the cheap seats singing praises of the story which has marginal character development, forced and unwieldy dialog and a paper thin plot. Lo and behold, this supporter is also working on a zombie story.

Of course you want to see your friends and compatriots to do well, that's human nature. But my original premise still stands. Are you really helping them if you "overlook" every mistake they make simply to sound positive and supply this support?

 

No, you're not. But the best kind of review is able to distinguish between real writing mistakes, and issues that are outside the scope of the novel, in terms of genre, intent, and or audience. That's one of the hardest parts of writing a good review.

 

To a certain degree, I expect a posting here to be rough, sometimes confusing. After all, that's why we're all here, to work on our stories. But I'm finding a strange dichotomy. Some of the members here, who seemingly get my harshest comments, write me PMs and e-mails and we get along great.

Personally, I think some of them are tired of getting smoke blown up their skirts.

 

Always careful, cautious when the youngsters post, or anybody really - when they claim first foray rights.

So much talk of 'publishers' - which I can't see as tooo relevant. 'Voice' is always exciting to find, and always intrigued by the role players and zombies who scrawl, play words, fantasy, just for the hell of it, is admirable.

Genre...

I love the 17 yr old, 'hot city night, drugs and I was on the streets, 24/7 hitting my guitar and cussing Mom. She'd be dead soon, the fool...and me , my pain, my agony stuck in the school yard.'

I love it all really, we're such a diverse bunch of grapes.

 

Matwoolf, I also see folks doing a critique on posts because they believe they are "reasonable" while everyone else is a hatchet man.

I just responded to a critique where a guy got chewed out for using ampersands. Maybe the writer was speaking as his ficticious character conveys thoughts. Most of the e-mails I get from real people have smilies in them.

 

Hi Tourist,

Truth is I just wanted to roll in the pit with the big boys and talk crit.

I was over the crit section, spent maybe 20 minutes with one guy's write; lots of people had been extremely constructive and I was on the edge of posting 'why describe the object in five sentences when one is enough? - hey I used to do the same thing, but now...' and 'the subject matter is trite, remember to entertain,' but realised it was probably his homework or something. I do make amends elsewhere, but not really sure I wanted to spoil his day.

I understand, there are ways and means. Is so much easier with the positive oxycrit. I admire tremendously the people who take time to dissect, offer guidance, especially to 'unpromising' material.

Heck, genre...still no Westerns in the can. My intention was to write one, bought E Leonard especially, to copy - so totally out of my reference. I kicked off 300 so maybe post it in there, not using it now.

 

LOL. If you don't mind, that comment is going to be my new mantra!

In a world of limp noodle spines and politcal correctness, we should be compiling a lexicon of pre-approved barbs and unpopular discourse.

I find it odd that such restrictions apply in a world using the ideas of "creative" and the atmosphere of "forum" and then actuality rule by capricious restraint and peer group pressure.

I cannot wait for the first time one angry biker accuses the another angry biker of being "switchblade challenged." I figure it's a matter of months.

 

Well, is a civilised place, eh?

Anyway, there's bikers and bikers, a boring bikers like a boring baker...ah well maybe not, but might read nice in the poetry section.

We're all different mindsets, can't be having stabbings and turf wars when there's a world of beautiful ladies and spring meadows to write poems in. I worked 4 months door security. I tell ya, cowards should not be bouncers, constant state of sickness, boss says 'sort it out' and within a minute these young fellas doing the superman hop under my toes, 'take this outside,' they say. 'Absolutely' I say, and shut the door. Thas me. well, y'know keep the macho understated, but I'll be right aside you - with the plastic pitchfork, push come shove

Crit, genre...well want to encourage writing...like I was trying to say, I like the way is not simply a matter of linear intelligence and 'voice' plays a big part. I'm still learning to keep it exciting, smooth flow for the eye. Main frustration is plain old markets, but that's for somewhere else.

I think the men were right 'the more you crit the better you write,' immerse, is joyful. I know it's all zombies atm but fads come/go. And tourist I like yr 'spade's a spade' - hope it comes out well for you in the writing.

 

LOL. If I'm around for much longer!

Imagine a sweet guy like me, and I've managed to irritate another mod. It gives Daniel and I something to laugh about.

But here's an example of giving out tough love. I have treated Komposten harder than anyone else here. Yet, he understands the reasons, and we have exchanged numerous pleasant PMs. If he wanted my help on edged hardware nomenclature all he would have to do is ask, and I would be glad to help out.

I think he's the kind of guy who'll go back, look at his work, consider the criticism and come back stronger and better. The way it should be.

 

I think critiquing can always be useful. Different kinds of critiques can just give you different perspectives. And you'll probably learn something from said critique, even if it is only the ability to evaluate critiques. I recently had a sample pro editor look at my work and while this person found many things to fix, I found much of the critique to be rather weak and unhelpful. If you write in a specific genre, it can also be helpful to see what nonfans of said genre think in addition to fans. You wanna try and get a lot of different thoughts. I think there is always learning potential in a critique. Sometimes that potential just lies in unexpected areas.

And I agree that critique needs to be both tough and encouraging. I've always tried to be both, because I feel that helps me to be the most honest as well. Anybody can give a bunch of vague teardowns. Anybody can give mindless praise. I've found that true critique will naturally give you both because your story probably has a lot that is both good and bad in it. IMO, you gotta get the balance right if you're to be good at critiquing.

But yes, anyone's opinion can be useful. Anyone is a potential reader and hearing what they think, provided you know how to file said information, can always be a potential benefit. Just don't let teardowns make you quit.

 

With one proviso. It depends on how serious the skill is to become.

For example, the BUD/S training for Navy SEALs is rigorous enough to make lots of folks quit. But let's be honest, they don't need quitters in that business.

Obviously, creative writing is usually done with your feet up, the latte' to a perfect drinking temperature, and family dog reclining by the fire. The biggest issue there is a nasty paper cut.

My skill-set is in the apprentice system. I don't want to waste my time doing +3 years of "wax on, wax off" for a guy who decides the wonderful world of swarf is beneath him.

Some of the members here write detailed critiques, with tremendous forethought, easily followed in differing fonts and color coded. That dedication deserves respect, and a newb should be happy to take a few bumps if it improves his work product.

 

EDIT: Forget it, I'm not gonna say anything. I'll send a PM to Komposten, myself.

 

I think you should.

Komposten and I learned a lot about each other, and it cleared the air. I've come to think of him as sincere about the craft.

The problem for you then is to re-evaluate what you thought of me. I won't change my course of conduct, I find value in it. You might have to face a differing methodology.

 

A review is a review.

A critique, however, is a detailed analysis of what works and what doesn't about the piece.

I think you should first of all be grateful anyone at all took the time to read your piece, and actually say something about it. No one has to tell you what they think of your work. No one even has to read it.

Reviews and critiques shouldn't be confused with one another. Both are useful in their own right. And you should respect everyone who takes the time to reply with either. Everyone is a potential reader, and everyone has an opinion that matters. You may not be able to see it, but every single bit of feedback you get, whether critical or not, is useful in some way, even if minimal.

Someone's preferred genre has nothing to do with how useful their feedback will be. Writing is writing, and the basic rules apply. It's either readable or not readable. Don't dismiss feedback someone has taken the time to give you.

 

Is reviewing good or bad? In fact review good or bad does not harm the writer and in fact it profits the writer. It is of course unpleasant when one hears criticism but the repercussion of it on the reader is in the long term is rewarding.

I for a while feel allergic to literature and in a while i feel it is in my interest and it will hone my skills.

 

In a very real sense, everything you write is reviewed and critiqued.

Unless all you write is diary entries, someone reads your stuff. And if you use a lap-tap connected to the world via a coaxial cable, every keystroke is lodged into a server somewhere.

Even if your book is sold or self-published, every single reader will be an armchair reviewer. And someone, somewhere will hate what you've written. For example, I first saw the movie "Gone With The Wind" in my late teens. I was told it was 'epic.' I thought the last third of the film could have been trimmed and edited. In bored me into a profound snooze.

I felt the printing of The Hunger Games butchered innocent trees. I wondered how many toxic chemicals were dumped into the enviroment developing the celluloid film for the dreadful Twilight films. Considering how many books are dumped unread into the bargain barrels of bookstores, I cannot understand how YA novels get published to begin with.

Now, that's "me," one reader. But if you're honest you'll admit that you do not like some sci-fi books and movies. Or the sappy bodice-rippers your grandmother reads. In general, more people hate zombie stories than enjoy them.

My point is simple, someone is going to read your stuff and reach for the TUMS. At least in a forum like this your story is going to be read by people who love the written word. I'll admit, I dislike more than 3/4s of the stuff I read here. But then, I've seen brilliance, even in a rough form.

Brilliance you can fix, and the author encouraged. But to do that, the writer has to step boldly out into this public forum.

 

reviewer

[ First three paragraphs. Are they engaging, do they hook a reader. If not, a rewrite may, not always, need to happen.]

When I pick up any book, if the first few pages don't grab me, I'm done. I must be hooked by then. It's like a meal, if the salad is wilty or the bread is like Gibralter-I know what I'm in for with my dinner.
If I want to be bored, I can watch my neighbor unload his groceries, and I don't have to purchase anything or return it either. Do I trust the reviewer? Not unless he loves the exact same things I do...or we're old friends and know what each other really enjoys reading. I'm tired of listening to movie critics rave and going to that movie, only to be disapointed, miserably. But if one of my friends tells me, it's fantastic-I start my car.




















2. Active vs Action openings. Beginning writers think they need to have big bangs, some action, prequel or SOMETHING to catch the agent/editor. It's a gimmick they spot a mile away. An active opening is completely different then an action opening, and it's the tool to grab the agents. Plenty of information on them on the net.
3. Character introduction and flow. Is the character introduced in the right time (should be in the first 3 paragraphs, no more then the first page) because it allows the reader to psychologically bond with your MC. If the flow isn't there, it doesn't matter either because the pace will be like a car misfiring. It's another skill writers have a hard time mastering also.

In a spirit of honestly, I also write SF.[/QUOTE]

 

I think it crucial to get someone outside my genre to review what I write. I like to write science fiction stories. Now, no one in my local writing group is into that, so it is amazing what they come up with for feedback. I figure that if they can't understand what I write then I have failed. I have them just use a highlighter to mark or circle mistakes or parts that they don't understand. Additionally, with face to face time, I like to figure out what I have missed to properly explain things like the technologies I employ. Some are inherently understood by science fiction fans, but many are not.

 

Great thread

I think this is an excellent question. I'll bet other people here have thought this, and that you are just the first to type it 'out loud'.

Just my opinion, but I think writers will benefit from having an outside view from someone who is unfamiliar with the genre. They can see how well they come across to even someone who is a little foreign to the character development and plot they normally associate with.

Reviews from people who don't like to READ, however, are probably not that useful. Which is why we all come together here for support and mutual edification rather than throw our writing samples in front of our illiterate friends and relatives and expect constructive results.

I recently took a religion class online. It was my last official requirement for my Bachelor's Degree. ("Yay!" "Thank you very much." =bows=) As an online class, without official meetings, we were required to post answers to really open ended questions like "How did you feel about Sarah's relationship to Hagar?" Now, religion is certainly not my bag, but as it seemed like we were being judged by word count and general verbosity rather than any real religious insight, I felt free to empty my bowels out on the page and just tell a story about the way I felt. I always ended up far afield of the main point but managed to work back around to it somehow.

And it ended up being a great exercise. Like a writers'-workshop enema. So, I guess it works both ways. It is good to receive comments from people unfamiliar with your genre, and it is good to flex your skills into other genres, as well.