Hi all, This is a sort of philosophical questions. I was just wondering wether there is a difference between a song and a poem... So is a poem basically just a song without music and viceversa? Or there is something distinctive that belongs to songs but not poems and viceversa? To me all songs can be poems and all poems can have music potentially added to it... Just curious to know what the others think. Thanks E
Structure. Songs have repeating sections (chorus) to ensure a memorable snippet the person listening to it can remember in future. Poems tend not to have this, because the poem is really a 'nice' way of telling a story.
i'm both a full time poet and a lyricist, and i mentor/tutor beginners in both arts, so can answer this from decades of writing poetry and lyrics... yes, there's a major difference... mainly in structure... a poem can be structured any way the poet wishes, while a lyric has to be written with the fact that it well be set to music and become a 'song' to be sung... this means that it can have any/all of the following elements: intro verses chorus bridge and those elements can be arranged in any number of ways, with some repeated, some slightly changed and repeated, and so on... poems are actually more than just 'a nice way of telling a story'... some will have not any 'story' element and only express an emotion, a memory, an opinion, or an image... and song lyrics often do tell a story... such as with 'me & bobby mcgee' and 'house of the rising sun'... hope this answers your question... love and hugs, maia
Although, there are a number of traditional formats for songs, music can be set to any piece of poetry or prose. There are many examples of non-traditional formats for songs. I'm not sure one can tell just by reading the words of many songs today if they were ordinarily meant as poetry or song. A few examples--poetry or song? Harry's House Heatwaves on the runway As the wheels set down He takes his baggage off the carousel He takes a taxi into town Yellow schools of taxi fishes Jonah in a ticking whale Caught up at the light in the fishnet windows Of Bloomingdale's Watching those high fashion girls Skinny black models with Raveen curls Beauty parlor blondes with credit card eyes Looking for the chic and the fancy To buy He opens up his suitcase In the continental suite And people twenty stories down Colored currents in the street A helicopter lands on the Pan Am roof Like a dragonfly on a tomb And business men in button downs Press into conference rooms Battalions of paper-minded males Talking commodities and sales While at home their paper wives And paper kids: paper their walls To keep their gut reactions hid Yellow checkers for the kitchen Climbing ivy for the bath She is lost in House and Gardens He's caught up in Chief of Staff He drifts off into the memory Of the way she looked in school With her body oiled and shining At the public swimming pool Shining hair and shining skin Shining as she reeled him in To tell him like she did today Just what he could do with Harry's House And Harry's take home pay Joni Mitchell - http://youtu.be/RgSS2fHbB7g Schism I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them fall away Mildewed and smoldering. Fundamental differing. Pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers souls in motion Disintegrating as it goes testing our communication The light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so We cannot see to reach an end crippling our communication. I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them tumble down No fault, none to blame it doesn't mean I don't desire to Point the finger, blame the other, watch the temple topple over. To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication The poetry that comes from the squaring off between, And the circling is worth it. Finding beauty in the dissonance. There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away. Mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication. Cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any Sense of compassion Between supposed lovers/brothers TOOL - http://youtu.be/iamw9OX0DUA Mrs. Jesus Life lines and suicide crimes He found me in a state Grabbed my purse and hitched a ride With a mrs. Jesus "how you been" I've been cruisin' a good invention But in some ways I don't think it gets any easier Your walking on the water Bit by far my favourite one But now it seems we're drowning In a drop of water love And even as i'm climbing up the stairs I know there's heaven there And then empty arms that comes With the morning star Well, made my bed of Cut roses by understanding That the cause It just comes first With my mrs. Jesus The gospel changes meaning If you follow John or Paul And could you ever let it be The Mary of it all And even as i'm climbing up the stairs Well, life lines and suicide crimes There's the something every day And there's someone always paging My mrs. Jesus Your walking on the water So if you get the Jones at the crossroad The personals are great If you're my way Let me love you mrs. Jesus. Tori Amos - http://youtu.be/AKvXaPQPiFQ Budapest I think she was a middle-distance runner (the translation wasn't clear) Could be a budding stately hero International competition in a year She was a good enough reason for a party (well, you couldn't keep up on a hard track mile) while she ran a perfect circle And she wore a perfect smile in Budapest... hot night in Budapest. We had to cozzy up in the old gymnasium dusting off the mandolins and checking on the gear She was helping out at the back-stage stopping hearts and chilling beer Yes, and her legs went on for ever Like staring up at infinity through a wisp of cotton panty along a skin of satin sea Hot night in Budapest. You could cut the heat, peel it back with the wrong side of a knife Feel it blowing from the sidefills. Feel like you were playing for your life (if not the money) Hot night in Budapest. She bent down to fill the ice box and stuffed some more warm white wine in like some weird unearthly vision wearing only T-shirt, pants and skin You know, it rippled, just a hint of muscle But the boys and me were heading west so we left her to the late crew and a hot night in Budapest It was a hot night in Budapest. She didn't speak much English language (she didn't speak much anyway) She wouldn't make love, but she could make good sandwich and she poured sweet wine before we played I thought I saw her at the late night restaurant She would have sent blue shivers down the wall But she didn't grace our table In fact, she wasn't there at all Yes, and her legs went on forever Like staring up at infinity Her heart was spinning to the west-lands and she didn't care to be that night in Budapest Hot night in Budapest Jethro Tull - http://youtu.be/8iKuHv0imaI The Dangerous Kitchen If it ain't one thing it's another In the middle of the night when you get home The bread things are all dry 'n' scratchy The meat things: where the cats ate through the paper The can things with the sharp little edges That can cut your fingers when you're not looking The soft little things on the floor that you step on They can all be dangerous Sometimes the milk can hurt you (If you put it on your cereal before you smell the plastic container) And the stuff in the strainer Has a mind of its own So be very careful In the dangerous kitchen When the night time has fallen, And the roaches are crawlin' In the kitchen of danger You can feel like a stranger The bananas are black They got flies in the back And also the chicken In the dish with the foil Where the cream is all clabbered And the salad is frightful Your return in the evening Can be less than delightful You must walk very careful You must not lean against it It can get on your clothing It can follow you in As you walk to the bedroom And you take all your clothes off While you're sleeping It crawls off It gets in your bed It could get on your face then It could eat your complexion You could die from the danger Of the dangerous kitchen Who the fuck wants to clean it? It's disgusting and dirty The sponge on the drainer Is stinky and squirty If you squeeze it when you wipe up What you get on your hands then Could un-balance your glands and Make you blind or whatever In the dangerous kitchen At my house tonight Frank Zappa - http://youtu.be/v2ny-ubUhow
The same applies to many songs/lyrics (meaning song lyrics, not lyrics). Sure, many follow a steady structure (ABABCB etc) and/or tell a story in a nice way, but some are a lot like, say, free verse poems; sometimes not a single line is repeated, usually the chorus or verse or such is repeated, but not always, and the subjects can range from boy meets girl to expressing an emotion or an idea, or anything, really. Some artists write very experimental lyrics. Bands like Tool and Agoraphobic Nosebleed, e.g, don't always repeat parts/lines in their songs, and often their subjects are less concrete than in, say, Frank Zappa's song, Bobby Brown (although Zappa is also famous for experimenting with song structures and lyrics/vocal parts). So I suppose there are certain norms to song lyrics as well as poems, but there's also a lot of crossovers out there, pieces that could just as well be song lyrics or poems (especially since neither art form requires structural elements like rhymes or meters even though both are common in both). I have written lyrics to a song that follow the rules of the heroic couplet and poems that have lacked a set meter and end rhymes.
Thank you all. So formally it is about structure but the distinction it is blurred and it is in the mind of the writer... I like music and I studied some piano when I was little, but really I don't know much about this art, so right now I can place my emotions and ideas in words but not in tunes... Nee, I'll try and guess later today which is a song and which is a poem! Best E
The purpose of associating verse with music imposes certain constraints on the writing, but it isn't an absolute. Music often imposes rhythm more strongly than general poetry. Repetition and rhyme is often tolerated better in combination with music than in standalone poetry, on a phrase or on a stanza basis. However, the two forms are very close, and can overlap considerably.
nee... judging from the one i checked out, you are not the author of all of those examples... site rules and copyright legality issues make it unacceptable to post others' work without citing the authors...
Well, both poetry and songs often convey a message. In both cases, the words rely upon the reader/listener to make their own meaning from the words as the content of the song or poem is often given through abstract terms. In songs you will have the added benefit of a tune, which can bring about certain emotions and feelings you already have regarding what is being talked about, while a poem might require different ways of constructing a sentence to convey the same meaning. But they are very similar though, and I can easily imagine some poems working as lyrics, and vice versa.
The one you checked out...? They are all well written pieces. It's to bad you did not allow yourself see the larger picture and enjoy the process of discovery--for that is one of the pleasures of poetry. I had every intention to post the artists names: but that would have rendered the whole point mute. But I see now that this isn't going to work anyway so I'm doing so now. It is interesting that in the "What Books Are You Reading" thread people routinely post the title of the books they are reading but not the authors. Seems there too is an outrage against the art of writing that (one would think) would be a cause for correcting, but no... It was a trick question. There are all poetry put to music. It would be nice if we all could step back from our rigidity and remember that is the love of the art that brings us here. Or is it?
If you quote from copyrighted material, you are required to properly identify the source. This site takes intellectual property laws and standards very seriously. Note that referring to a creative work without posting an excerpt does not require full attribution, so your comment about "What Books Are You Reading?" is irrelevant.
The music is the whole difference. A poem is meant to be recited (or read). A lyric is meant to be sung. The music adds emotion and context to the words. It's like asking "what's the difference between a novel and a play - other than the acting?" Plays are meant to be acted, not simply read. They come alive when acted. Lyrics come alive with the music. Check out William Shatner's version of Elton John's "Rocket Man" (youtube) to see how silly a lyric sounds when it is just recited. I've written lyrics and posted them for critique on another website but I can't write poetry if my life depended on it. There is a difference but it's really hard to describe - which is probably why I can't write poetry.
I've heard William Shatner recite Shakespeare: he made that sound pretty damn silly as well. It's a personal gift of his. His "Lucy in the Sky" brought tears to my eyes. And every one of those pieces I posted read just fine as poetry.
Actually I was writing to the OP, but thanks for your interesting reply. The reason those pieces read fine as poetry is because they ARE poetry. No structure. No hook. Just poetry set to music. It's why I've never heard of those songs before. Nobody walks down the street humming poetry. Don't get me wrong, I love Joni Mitchell. But it's why "we got to get ourselves back to the garden" is not very poetic but Joni got CS&N (and sometimes Y) a big hit with it. It worked with the music. It's why "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere" will never top the charts no matter what the music is, but it's why Paul Revere and the Raiders can sing: Kicks just keep gettin' harder to find And all your kicks ain't bringin' you peace of mind Before you find out it's too late, girl You better get straight No, but not with kicks You just need help, girl And get royalty checks for years and years. If they read that at a poety reading, they'd be laughed to scorn. Like someone said earlier, there is some crossover, but they're fundamentally different.
Well, there are many like that. And it is sad that some of the best poets of the last 40 years are not taken seriously. Especially seeing how most of the old formats of poetry were song as well as read. It was only in the late 1800's when that began to change. Which is when the "popular" song was invented.
I've had reservations about posting to this thread, because I believe you, Nee, have already convinced yourself that lyrics are poems. They are very poetic lyrics, (and you appear to have great taste in music,) but still, they are lyrics. They're structure identifies them as lyrics. Lyrics are a type of poetry, but they are not poems. If the authors of these lyrics were to use a pseudonym and tried to publish them as poems then they would undoubtedly be rejected, because they are lyrics and not poems. You can't classify them as any known type of poem, but you can classify them as lyrics. They're neither formal (because they do not have a regular meter) nor free verse (because they're line breaks are determined by rhyme and not syntactic closure or enjambment*), they are lyrics. *("syntactic closure or enjambment") p.369 A Poet's Guide To Poetry, by Mary Kinzie
Rejected by whom...? http://www.amazon.com/dp/0609600087/?tag=postedlinks04-20 http://youtu.be/DDS1YJsfvio
1. She is not using a pseudonym. 2. Even she makes a distinction between poems and lyrics according to her book's title.
I didn't say everything she wrote is a poem. Only that some songs are poems with music. And I think you'd be interested in the video I posted also.
Here's the difference: You are the promised kiss of springtime That makes the lonely winter seem long. You are the breathless hush of evening That trembles on the brink of a lovely song. -- Oscar Hammerstein Oh Barbara Ann take my hand (Bar bar bar bar Barbar Ann) Barbara Ann (Bar bar bar bar Barbar Ann) You got me rockin' and a rollin' Rockin' and a reelin' Barbara Ann Bar bar bar bar Barbar Ann -- Fred Fassert
al... while the last line of that verse from hammerstein's classic lyric works well for the music jerome kern set it to [or that oscar was writing it to], it does not work well for a poem, since the meter is a bit off, poetically [3 lines of 9 syllables, followed by 11]... so that's a good example of the difference between poetry and lyrics as well, though you don't seem to have meant it to be... the fassert lyric is just a much more obvious example...
