Killing Children, A Cheap Shot?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Show, Oct 28, 2008.

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  1. EyezForYou

    EyezForYou Active Member

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    The MIST, anyone?
     
  2. Banzai

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

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    I agree with what you're saying, but that applies to just about every scene. It isn't just death, rape, gory or sex scenes, if you're going to create a good story, all of the scenes need to be well written, and they all need to have a point. I don't think certain scenes should be shied away from though, simply because they may be more difficult, or have been poorly executed in the past.
     
  3. CommonGoods

    CommonGoods New Member

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    I think that Emeralds point was that some scenes are more prone to bad writing then others. Although you make a valid point, in creative writing you should never shun a topic because it's difficult.

    I, for one, like to think that in literature, there are no taboos. Death happens. Rape happens. Etc etc. Never ignorea taboo because it's a taboo, but never use a taboo because its a taboo either. If it fits in the story, use it. If it doesn't, don't use it.

    Newcomb's Blood and Stone chronicles handle a number of taboos, including the death of children. It might be interesting research material.
     
  4. Show

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    That's actually the movie in which this discussion originally arose. Although my issues with that movie lie with what I feel is inconsistancy.


    There does seem to be a taboo with child deaths in movies. Often the death happens offscreen and the result is never shown. It's like there's only a certain line those who make the movie are willing to cross. If they kill the kid, it often happens offscreen. Now in a novel, there is a bit more wiggle room since you're making somebody imagine this scene in their mind instead of playing a video for them of the scene. Now, this is probably because I am not familiar with too many pieces of literature, but I haven't yet found a novel in which there is a detailed death of a main child that happens "onscreen"(having trouble finding a proper word to describe what I mean here). But I'm sure they exist though.

    I myself as a writer love to write situations very emotionally gripping. I like to try to delve into the human soul and use a bunch of elements to give an interesting perspective on death and rape among other hot issues. So I definitely try not to have any taboos, and most certainly not a taboo on killing kids. I do it my novel/novella I am working on and in my serial. I want to show this death through multiple perspectives. I mean think of all the perspectives possible, there are the parents/legal guardians, any said siblings or close friends of the kid, and a perspective not often focused on, the dying kid himself. To know your life is ending in a matter of minutes, what will be thinking? You are so young and have hardly lived yet and now because of something that shouldn't have happened, you'll never get the chance to do all of these things. How do you react to this?

    It's all all part of the emotion I enjoy tapping into as a writer, so I don't see killing children as a taboo. I agree it can often be a cheap shot(and I've felt this way in movies before), but I can't say that it's anything to really be avoided.

    Anyway, rant over. You can now return to your day. :)
     
  5. Sylvester

    Sylvester New Member

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    Death of a child shouldn't be taboo. It can push the hero to stop it from happening again by solving the crime or finding a cure to a disease.

    Personally, I'd prefer a good kidnapping so the hero or heroes can save the day and rescue with NOBODY being killed.
     
  6. Show

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    Yes it can. It can be a very important turning point in a story.

    But, what if there is no crime to be solved or no disease to cure? The bad guy is already dead. What then is left for the surviving protagonists? That's where things can get really interesting. And it's often where I enjoy focusing the story for at least a period of time. A child's death in fiction, I feel, can be even more plot changing than an adults. Reflecting real life, it's extra tragic when a child dies, so I see little reason why it should be different in fiction. However, life takes the lives of people of all ages in real life. So I also see little reason why it should be different in fiction. I think the decision on whether or not it is necessary to kill off a character, especially a child character, should rest on what kind of tone you want your story to have. If you kill a child, the tone of the story can be darkened even more so than if you killed an adult. So I think this should be kept in mind when making the decision.

    I too enjoy those stories where it all works out and the hero saves the day, but I also like exploring the deep emotional impact of loss and death. So I guess I enjoy a good balance of "saving the day" and "Not saving the day."
     
  7. Emerald

    Emerald New Member

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    You can't redefine what society views as taboo. You might be the gods of your own world, but you're not the gods of this one. If you have a kid being tortured or raped or killed without handling it expertly well, your audience will immediately be limited to the sick and twisted. You can't say "yeah, but I meant to make you vomit," and expect people to go "Oh, okay, as long as you meant to present as disturbing an image as one can imagine..."

    It's the same reason people don't slip a transvestite midget scat sex scene into their books. Sure, it probably happens, but nobody wants to see it. And you'll have a hell of a time making people want to see it...

    I'm sure there's a thousand other creative ways to invoke people's emotions than having a kid die...
     
  8. Show

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    How would you define handling it well?

    Ah but what if those others ways don't have the same impact on the story? I can't make kids immortal just because people may not like it. I don't want people to want to see the death. I want them to not want to see the death because they care about the characters involved. See, my death scenes that involve all my characters are essential to my story.

    Let's see, the two most prominent kid deaths where the kid actually dies and stays dead(don't ask what that means, lol) are at the end of my novel/novella and at the end of the second season of my serial.

    With the novel/novella two main characters, one an older teen, and one a preteenage child, both meet a tragic end at the hands of the story's antagonist. I feel the scenes gives the ending a very strong impact. It's also part of a twist that I hope to surprise the audience with. I think doing anything else besides what I did would just make the story bad and unmemorable.

    The death in the serial is the death of a central character who overcame a lot and touched a lot of lives. This death is a slow one with his closest friends around him. Readers would have come to know and care for this character for the entire season. The death is essential for moving the story forward and no adult death would have this much an impact on the story.

    So I guess that my deaths of kids aren't something that I can swap for an adult death and expect the same impact. I guess that means that I just have to work a little harder to make sure it's "expertly done" eh? ;)
     
  9. Emerald

    Emerald New Member

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    Well, you have to understand that people aren't automatically invested in your characters. The reality, is that someone is holding a book/movie/series/whatever in their hands in which a child dies and thinking "Do I really wanna see/imagine that happening?"

    That's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea (I hope): remember all that controversy about that film Dakota Fanning was in where she gets raped? That was handled fairly well -- the actress wasn't even involved in the scene (it was just a voice-over), and still there was massive outcry over it, mostly from people who'd never even seen it. It's a taboo, most definitely.


    Personally, I don't think I'd be able to handle it well enough. I don't have enough experience on the matter, both in the reality of the situation, and the literary methods. I don't know any kids who've died, I've never really watched/read a movie/book about a kid dying that I can think of, and I've certainly never seen a kid die. I would never presume I knew enough about it to make sure it's expertly done...
     
  10. Scattercat

    Scattercat Active Member

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    Quoted for truth. That's pretty much what I was going to say with about three hundred more words. I'll just leave it as it is, instead.
     
  11. Show

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    The Dakota Fanning thing seems to be something primarily because of ignorance. I can't let the ignorance of possible non-readers keep me from writing my story. Some plotlines call for a kid to bite it and changing that would make the story lose a lot of umph.

    While people may not automatically be invested in your characters, the hope is to have them become invested. I don't think people want to imagine anyone dying or getting raped. But if people care about the characters, then they'll hopefully hurt for the character. If you think about it, if people wanted to imagine a kid getting raped or murdered, then the scene would really lose it's impact. And if they don't care about your characters, they likely may not even continue reading long enough to get to the scene in question. It's definitely a gamble, but one which I feel can pay off if you do it carefully.

    I try to get my head into all sorts of situations I've never been in. If I could only write about things I experienced, my writing would be pretty darn dull. So I have to simply have to put my head into the situation. I understand that it's tough for some readers but child characters are still characters. If they always come out of everything, then there's little reason for people to read it because they know what will happen. Showing that all characters are human allows people to realize that these characters can experience everything that humans can experience, whether it be good or bad. Showing that they are mortal helps them to appreciate the character and understand that they can lose them. It's kind of like in real life. Children aren't safe from these things in real life, so I see little reason why they should be safe in my writing. It's a sad fact about life, but one which is true nonetheless. I would hope that readers of my work could understand my reasons for doing what I do and realize that it is necessary to the story.
     
  12. Speedy

    Speedy Contributor Contributor

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    Was fun reading this - up to a untion where i've got to kill a kid (though there was hardly any story to the kid and there is a large purpose)so its ok.

    For me, as long as there is a purpose for the plot and the kill is just described as a killing (say like other murders throughout the book) than fine, but if you go out of your way and make it "haha look, im killing a KID' approach, forget about it!
     
  13. Sylvester

    Sylvester New Member

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    The target audience should also be taken into consideration. You probably wouldn't want to have a child actually dying in something aimed at children or families. It doesn't mean the characters can't be dealing with the subject. For example a family living with the loss of a child a year or two earlier. An accident, illness, or person who threatens the surviving child.

    In killing a child I think you also have to look at how the child dies. Is the writer having an infant die of SIDS or did a serial killer slit his or her throat. A car accident?

    I don't think anyone wants to see children being killed, but that doesn't mean it's a cheap shot if it's in a movie or book. Art imitates life and in life, children die.
     
  14. Show

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    Well, I don't aim my works at young children so I think that isn't an issue for me.

    I don't deal much with infants either. I deal with older child who are almost teens bunot yet teens. I feel that they are the most neglected age in storylines of movies and tv shows, which saddens me since they have some of the best storyline potential. They are just tasting the feeling of the emotions associated with age as they come to understand how cruel the world can be. But they are still children, still vulnerable and fragile inside. Throw death into the mix, of a child no less, and you can get some intense stuff. The child who is dying, his close friends of the same age, it can be intense stuff.

    Yup, Yup!
     
  15. Sylvester

    Sylvester New Member

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    The lead characters in my current script are the same age. Four twelve year old super heroes who are "stolen" by a childless heiress.

    While I've never considered actually killing them, I have thought about "arranging" their apparent deaths to cover up their disappearances to the general public.
     
  16. Emerald

    Emerald New Member

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    It might be interesting to hold a contest to see who can write the best infant death scene...
    That'd be the best way to settle the debate definitively.
     
  17. Show

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    Well, my characters are normal kids with no powers living in a world with no powers, lol. But all three of them have gone through some intense tragedy. I'm almost at the point where I get to kill off one of them. The three boys had formed a sort of posse and the death of one hits the other two(As well as the rest of the town) like an avalanche. It's probably going to be one of the biggest upsets in my serial yet. I've never actually cut that last lifewire with a main character in this serial before. I've come VERY close, even going as far as killing somebody for an episode. But in this episode, 3 main characters die, one of them this boy. So I'm gearing up to let loose and see how it turns out. I did however already write a death scene for my novel/novella ending(Wrote the ending first, lol) in which an 11 year old boy is brutally murdered at the end along with his surrogate brother whose about 19. Scenes pretty intense.

    How would you go about faking their deaths? An explosion? Or will you plant lookalike corpses for the town to find?

    Hmmmmm, well, writing an infant death scene is different than an older child. I think each is an entirely different animal.
     
  18. Sylvester

    Sylvester New Member

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    No bodies...

    Originally, the idea had an exploding satellite in space. The kids suvive, but are kidnapped before anyone finds out.

    Actually, it might be interesting to explore how the world might react if four heroic kids like Phoenix Force "died" saving it.

    Of course it'll be a cover up so nobody will suspect that the kids have been kidnapped. That also means there will be nobody looking for them to save them.
     
  19. Show

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    Hmmmm, sounds interesting. You going to plant fake corpses for them to find? LIke bodies of other kids that are so charred that they are beyond recognition and therefore can pass as the bodies for the superheroes? Or are you just going to have the world believe that they all burned up in the explosion?

    I'm thinking of posting the summaries for my favorite 2 child death scenes that I've written, you know, get some reaction. I wonder if it'd be a good idea to do that.
     
  20. Sylvester

    Sylvester New Member

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    They were presumed to have died in the explosion with any remains burning up with the rest of the debris as it enters the Earth's atmosphere.

    I'm not sure if I'll keep the concept as it makes the story a bit too sci-fi-ish. Meant to protect their secret, magical clones of the kids will keep their families and friends from realizing they are missing. Besides, when the public does notice the disappearance of the heroes, nobody would ever suspect the truth.

    Not that I'm going to discard the idea entirely. If anyone has any suggestions on how to "kill" Phoenix Force, I'm all ears.

    As for posting your summaries, I'm not too much into death scenes, but I'll take a look. Maybe just post one and see what kind of response you get.
     
  21. Show

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    Ah the classic burnt up corpse trick. lol When that happens in a story, you can almost be certain that the person is alive. The only people who fall for that anymore are the characters in the story themselves. Luckily, you're not making the kids' survival a mystery so you're good.

    So are you going the clone route or the fake death route? BTW, does the world know that these kids are superheroes or is that a secret that nobody but a select few know?

    How to kill them? Hmmmm, maybe you can have a bunch of already dead kids' corpses stolen from the morgue. Then you can have the villains rearrange the faces of the corpses to look like the Phoenix force kids. Then dump their bodies somewhere to be found and kidnap the other kids. lol Ok, that's a little crazy but it'd be a good to fool everybody else by somehow leaving a lookalike corpse of each kid to be found.

    I'll post the one from the novel/novella, it's shorter and less detail is involved. It is however, less emotional.

    Ok anyway, brief background. For most of the novel, the 3 main protagonists, Robby, an 11 year old boy, Joey, a 19 year old, and Tory, another 19 year old, have been on the run from an escaped mental patient, David Delgado. David accidentally caused his son's death five years prior but has never been able to be convinced of this. When he sees Robby on TV(details of that not necessary here), he becomes convinced that Robby is his son. After he escapes, he tracks him down and tries to kidnap him. The rest of the story follows the protagonists running from David.(Middle ideas not yet complete, but Im planning a lot of good thriller-like elements.)

    Anyway, the climax is reached when in a city, the three main protagonists are cornered into an abandoned building. Tory is knocked out while Joey and Robby flee to the top floor, but wind up cornered there by David. Tory regains consciousness and stumbles up the stairs, clinching his gun.

    Robby doesn't want anybody else to get hurt because of him so he gives in to David and agrees to be David's son if David allows Joey to stay with him. David agrees and embraces his "son" and promises to make him happy. He apologizes for not being there for him all of these years and says that he will make it up to him by making him happy forever. He goes on to say that because of the cruel ways of the world, true happiness is not possible here. He goes on to speak of the horrors he's seen in his life(many his own darn fault, but try telling him that). Before Joey and Robby can react, David shoves Robby and Joey through the window of the room, just as Tory walks in to see it.(Next scene is probably predictable from this point.) After finishing business with David, Tory runs to the ground floor and outside and tries to reawaken his friends, in denial about their grim fates. (There's a bit more but it's not really important to the specifics on the boy's death.)

    Anyway, that about sums it up. It needs work I know, but it isn't done yet so I got plenty of chances to brush it up. I could've ended it differently but I sort of got tired of writing a story where the heroes always win the conflict. Sometimes in life, we just lose. And that's what happens here, the heroes lose the conflict and two die as a result. Anyway, I'd be open to any pointers you could give me. And sorry if I'm bad with details, I suck at explaining.
     
  22. Sylvester

    Sylvester New Member

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    Your idea sounds pretty good, but without more detail it does leave me with questions such as where the boy's parents are and why they don't call the police. Where does the story go from there?

    In a real life drama, death is usually final, so I'd make sure that is what you want.

    Having built the kids up as powerful seemingly invincible super heroes, I want to flip the plot and turn them back into children, completly helpless in the hands of their abductor. The clones are intended to keep their families and friends from realizing Leon, Beverly, Renee, and Kelly are missing. If I can realistically get the world to believe Static, Charmer, White Sorceress, and Dreamer are dead, any hope of rescue will be gone and their plight made more desperate. As it is, nobody would expect the true motive for their disappearance anyway.

    As for going public, they will go public at an event sponsored by Jessica Burrough, the heiress. Her foundation allows parents to record information on their children should they become missing, including fingerprints.

    This scene is critical as it introduces the clones. Hinted at in one of Kelly's visions and revealed later in a flashbach, the kids are also secretly scanned. Revealed, they are absorbing a light-based energy that is passing thru almost everyone and everything else. The exception, the gold satin blouse one girl in the crowd is wearing is reflecting it like a mirror. The kidnappers will thus take their costumes and gadgets and dress the boy and three girls in brilliant gold satin jumpsuits while they are unconscious. With the energy unble to penetrate their pajamas, their powers are completely neutralized when they awaken.
     
  23. Show

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    Yeah, sorry abo those details, lol. It's kind of hard to get the whole book into it all. Anyway, the boy was an orphan. He was shuffled from Foster home to Foster home with the only constant in his life being the orphan Joey. The boy's current foster parents were presumably killed by David early on in the book. (Haven't gotten that scene figured out too much. Still working on the middle details.) Joey does call the police at some point but the police aren't exactly helpful here. And considering that he spends most of the book fleeing, he doesn't have too much time to waste calling the police.

    And most of the time, it is final in my works. A few instances where it wasn't but those were other works. Yes it's what I want. Some may ask why I killed them. I ask why shouldn't I have? If I came up with some cheesy happy ending, the story wouldn't be very memorable. Same would be true if I did a bittersweet ending where Joey sacrifices himself to save Robby. And I didn't want to pull a The Mist and have Joey kill Robby. So I chose this ending. I find that this ending leaves the most impact. And yes this is the ending. From here, the story just goes into an ambiguous ending on the fate of Tory, leaving what happens with his life up to the reader to decide. Some suggustions are dropped but nothing is confirmed.

    Anyway, sorry about the lack of details. I'm bad at summarizing and since I was just focused on the death scene itself, I left out details unrelated to it. Of course I would build up te characters so the audience cares about the ending.

    That sounds pretty interesting. Hope that all works out for you.
     
  24. hartwell

    hartwell New Member

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    Is it acceptable to kill a child character?

    I am writing a book where it is essential to have a child character die as part of the story. A writer friend of mine is completely against the idea under any circumstance. He stated that society looks down on it. Can you please let me know if it is acceptable?
     
  25. Acglaphotis

    Acglaphotis New Member

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    Of course it is. You're god, dude. Inside your stories, that is. You can do anything you like, and besides, there are tons of book with children dying, if society looked down upon it, surely they wouldn't have gotten published.
     
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