Lost faith in my book - friends and family beta readers and hurt feelingd

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by Integer, Mar 5, 2017.

  1. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    To an extent, I agree with you ... at least when it comes to my own experience. It truly doesn't bother me if folks don't get back to me about my writing, mainly because I've had enough good (useful) feedback that it doesn't matter. But everybody's experience is different. And there is no excuse I can think of to ask to read a dear friend's book—upon which you know they have spent a great deal of time and effort—and then not bother to ever mention it again? Even just to say they can't read it for whatever reason. It's the 'can't bother' aspect of this that I think is bad, not the 'don't like' aspect. To me it feels like not acknowledging a gift. Even if you hate the gift, you say 'thank you.' You don't just ignore it.

    I've had quite a few people ask me to beta read. I have NEVER accepted the task, taken on the manuscript, and then not got back to them at all. That's just ...crappy behaviour. These folk are sitting, waiting to hear from you, and you can't be bothered? I don't think so.
     
    izzybot, 123456789 and Tenderiser like this.
  2. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    You need to take it less personally. It's not about you - it's just the book probably didn't capture their attention. The general reader does not usually read with a mind to critique - they don't know what's wrong with it. They don't know what bored them. They only know they got bored and wanted to to do something else. I once sent my draft to a friend, who did finish the entire thing, and then couldn't give me any feedback because she just forgot it all. She couldn't remember any of the details. That's not really my book that's the problem - she's this way with any book she reads.

    Also, learn your lesson - 9 times out of 10, people who say they'd read your stuff never do, and the 1% who does read your stuff may not finish it. It's just the way it is. Toughen up - you've got to, because that's how this game works. Again, you just have to realise it's not personal.

    The fact that they've all stopped halfway through is telling. Several of my friends also got halfway through my self-pubbed novel and stopped (my beta readers all finished it and most of them enjoyed it - however now I'm starting to question if perhaps they finished it because they were committed to the role of beta reading, as opposed to continuing because they naturally would have). My dad once told me that he thinks the book has pacing problems - he's not a writer - he's not even into the arts. He's an accountant, but he's a very critical viewer/reader. I kept his comment in mind but didn't really explore further - now with several friends stopping halfway through, I'm hearing the comment in my head again. He was probably right.

    Ask your friends and family a simple question: where did you get up to? If they don't remember, start naming them things that happen at around the middle point. If they know about it or have vague recollections, then they got to that point at least. If they don't have a clue what you're talking about, then you know they never made it past that point. Now examine that middle section and analyse for yourself why they stopped. Send these specific scenes and chapters to friends willing to critique your work - it's easier to critique when the piece is short - or post it up here in the Workshop - and let others pick it apart.

    Don't let this come between your friends and family. Seriously, as important as your book is, it's never that important. When it becomes more important to you than your friends and family, then you've got problems. Relationships are the one thing of value in this world - everything else is just entertainment. Yes, your book is important. But these people, while they may not read your book, they will be there when you're in the pits. Your family will be there when you run out of money and have nothing to eat. Your friends will be by your side when your employer makes your life miserable and they will come and take you out for drinks and rally around you. Books cannot do that. Don't hold so tightly onto your books. On your death bed, you will not want to hold your book to your bosom - it will be your friends and family you want at your side. Yes, they let you down. So forgive them, just as they must have forgiven you countless times.
     
    jannert likes this.
  3. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2017
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    454
    Here's the thing, when I buy books, I buy authors I like or who are renowned, or recommendations from people/ reviewers I trust. I invariably enjoy these books.

    On the odd occasion that I pluck a book off the shelf at random, or read one of my mother's cast-offs (she reads a lot of trashy supermarket novels), I rarely finish them. I usually hit a chapter that is clearly filler, or some tired trope, or plain bad writing, or -worst of all- some character who is a too-cool-for school/ Mary-Sue author proxy (this just makes me cringe), and I quit. This happens regularly and the books are not only by published authors, but best-selling authors. People aren't always going to like the things you write. It is probably best just to find out where and why they lost interest.
     
    TheThinkerDeath and jannert like this.
  4. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    10,216
    Location:
    London, UK
    Thank god somebody has read and understood my posts!
     
    jannert, BayView and izzybot like this.
  5. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    All right. We get it. One cannot expect friends to care about one's writing endeavors, even if they like to read, write themselves, have you beta read for them, etc.

    On the 0.00001% chance one becomes the next Stephen King, I am sure those same friends will continue to be as disinterested in that person's writing career.
     
  6. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2015
    Messages:
    2,419
    Likes Received:
    3,884
    Location:
    SC, USA
    I feel like there are several things being talked about in this thread as if they're the same thing. Asking someone to read something critically for you and just asking them to read it are different; so are asking someone to read something that they wouldn't ordinary like as a favor and asking them to read something you think they will like, based on them already being an avid reader of similar things. There's also a difference between feeling entitled to someone's time and effort to read your novel, and just having your feelings hurt a bit because they're not interested in doing it.

    Say I've finished a sci-fi novel that's about AIs, cyborgs, and transhumanism / the nature of humanity. This sounds like the kind of thing my reader brother would like, but my reader/writer SO wouldn't be especially into. If I ask them both to take a look at it and my SO isn't interested, that's fine - it's not personal, it's just not her genre. If my brother isn't interested, it does feel personal, because I'm quite sure he'd be interested in this book if he just saw it on the shelf. If my SO reads it anyway and doesn't like it or doesn't even finish it, that's not personal - my feelings might be hurt, but I'd understand.

    Say I've finished a high fantasy novel with a romance plot. My brother would hate everything about it, but I think my SO and my reader mom would like it. If they both want to read it, because my SO is a writer too, I ask her to read it a little more critically that she might read something else. I welcome any semi-writerly feedback from my mom, because she's extraordinarily well-read and knows what she's talking about, but I don't expect it. I also don't feel entitled to my SO giving me a free beta read - if she didn't want to, I'd understand.

    I think communication is the thing here, and understanding both what you're asking what what you expect to get. Just emphasize that it's no pressure and you're not going to have a meltdown if they don't like it, and if they don't want to read it at all, that's completely fine. Honesty is more useful than enthusiasm. If someone can't be honest about whether they want to read it or whether they liked it, they're not much use as a reader, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're not a good friend otherwise.

    I'm the type of person who gets interested in my friends' hobbies because they're my friends' hobbies and I love my friends. If someone got into model trains you can bet I'd be there going "Tell me all about this". It's hard for me to understand not doing that, because it's a very genuine thing for me that I don't regard as 'work', so sure - a friend not showing even a passing interest in my writing can make it feel like they don't care about me, because showing interest is how I show that I do care. In my head I know that they just have a different method of expressing affection, but it sucks. Dealing with it takes a lot of understanding, and it can take a while to develop that kind of understanding. God knows I don't have it down yet.
     
  7. michaelj

    michaelj Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    8
    I agree with how it's not fair on readers who want to enjoy books to beta read.

    Perhaps you could pay someone though? That way it's more likely to be reliable.
     
  8. michaelj

    michaelj Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    8
    I'd never ask my friends or family to read a whole draft novel of mine. I feel it's a tad on the selfish side as I'm expecting too much and let's be honest. We want one thing: praise.

    On the other hand, I've shared chapters in which they were mostly surprised I could write. Mostly they never finished them but I realise they got lives too.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Well, if your friend is into hunting and you're a vegan, no, you probably wouldn't go out to the barn with him.

    But if your friend is into hunting and you just got a new gun or shot a big buck or did some other hunting-related thing, it'd be weird if your friend wasn't interested, wouldn't it?

    @Tenderiser's friends are readers. So why don't they want to read her stuff? I have no idea, but I think it's weird.
     
    jannert, Tenderiser and izzybot like this.
  10. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes Received:
    1,647
    Location:
    [unspecified]
    Yup. Seems this is one of those growing pains things.

    My advice: put this story behind you. Chalk it up to learning and start figuring out what you're going to write next.

    And use that resentment to fuel your writing fires. Pay those bastards back by writing something else, something that'll make them wish they were you. ;)
     
    Homer Potvin likes this.
  11. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,141
    Likes Received:
    19,771
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Fuck yeah!
     
    Sack-a-Doo! likes this.
  12. Paul Kinsella

    Paul Kinsella Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2017
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    44
    10346659_631303536958721_8738821742892468101_n.jpg
     
  13. Paul Kinsella

    Paul Kinsella Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2017
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    44
    How many words is your book? May I read it?
     
  14. Rosacrvx

    Rosacrvx Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    427
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
  15. madorosh

    madorosh New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    8
    I just did a google search on "novel writing - what if beta readers never finish" and this thread came up as one of the first hits. Sorry for the necro-post but just wanted to say I found the discussion interesting and helpful. I can only agree with some of the other comments - critique groups seem to dissolve after weeks, and I've gotten the same reactions from friends I've sent manuscript to. Second best thing I ever did was pay money to professional reading services/editors. (The first best thing I did was pay to take some 10 week novel writing courses with the local writer's society - this included weekly critique sessions that opened my eyes to all the basic mechanics of novel writing and was a real confidence boost as the majority of writers were very helpful, despite representing a wide array of genres and interests).

    I sent my first 50 pages to C.S. Lakin who basically shredded the premise of the book. At first I thought she was just asking dumb questions. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that if she had these questions about the basic premise, others would as well and it convinced me I had started the novel 3 chapters too late. So I went back and added three more chapters explaining all the 'stuff' she found unconvincing. Then I sent the first 50,000 words to the paid reading service of the Alberta Writer's Guild. I got back some great feedback.

    I'm convinced from my own experiences, and reading the experiences of others in this thread, that poor beta reading experiences aren't necessarily a death knell. I'd even say they are normal. I must shame-facedly admit to being asked to beta read for others and having completely dropped the ball on them. It happens.
     
  16. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    @Integer, I think the best feedback you may have gotten was from your author friend, though she might have phrased it more tactfully and offered some reason why she felt that way
    a. Since she is an author, she knows something about writing
    b. She's not afraid to hurt your feelings.

    Friends and family is a hard choice for beta readers, because they feel somewhat obligated, and may have a hard time being critical of your work. That said, @K McIntyre and I edit each other's work on a chapter-by-chapter basis... but then we have been married for for 39 years and have no problems criticizing each other when warranted. That is why we stayed married that long. But we also have other beta readers and editors, for additional outside opinions, and we don't spring our work on each other full-blown. We bring up a chapter at a time, and if we find something is off-track, we talk about it, rewrite the section and try again ... or just say that is my story, thank you for your input but it stays the way it is.

    But unless you have that kind of close relationship with friends and family, don't use them for betas. And when you do get feedback, have a thick skin, because the most critical comments are often the most important, so look forward to the critical ones.

    Also be respectful to your betas. Don't forward them first-draft trash, complete with SPaG, missing/repeated words, misidentified dialogue tags. If you are asking them to review your work for content, give them the best content you can. Or if you are SPaG-challenged, don't expect them to delve too deeply into content while checking the 1297th misspelled word.
     
    jannert likes this.
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    My guy doesn’t read my stuff, and mostly by mutual agreement, because he can’t comment remotely in the context of the story—he makes all sorts of huge plot-scrambling suggestions and he’s kind of miffed when I nod politely. So we’ve concluded that if I ever get published, he’ll read it then, because it’s too late to change.

    This really doesn’t address the thread. I’m just rambling.
     
    jannert, madorosh and matwoolf like this.
  18. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    22,569
    Likes Received:
    25,885
    Location:
    East devon/somerset border
    Just be aware that this a necro - integer hasn't been seen since january
     
  19. Lawless

    Lawless Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2018
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    169

    I've had a similar experience. (Except I didn't lose faith in my book because I just so tremendously enjoy reading the completed parts of it myself.)

    I gave a WIP to a number of people I knew in the real world who said they were interested. I don't think I got any feedback whatsoever.

    As it was a WIP, I sent them only the first 20 or 40 pages and told them to tell me if they wanted to read the next part. One of them actually did, but I still didn't get any feedback from him. One beta-reader whom I actually asked what she thought and would she like to read more said it was really good and yes she wanted to read more, and when I sent her the next part, she didn't reply and I left it at that.

    I am sure they didn't like it and didn't want to risk spoiling good relations with me by criticizing it.


    Years ago I wrote a short story and emailed it to a number of friends, and I got zero feedback. I was extremely disappointed and discouraged. I had two follow-up stories planned, but then I dropped the whole project. Some time later one of those people happened to mention in a conversation that the story ended at a very intriguing moment and he would have very much liked a follow-up. I was like: OMG, why did you say anything when I asked you to?

    I think many people just don't know how to give feedback on a manuscript. The have never done things like writing a book review.


    Then again, I have gotten good useful feedback in the past from a couple of long-time friends who are used to discussing various things with me.

    On the other hand, I had a girlfriend who read my works with great interest and then trashed them completely.


    If you'll send me your manuscript, I promise I will give you actual feedback – what I liked, what I didn't, why (if) I didn't finish it, what I recommend. You may like it or not, but I won't leave you in the dark.

    Unless it's about vampires.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
    jannert and Mckk like this.
  20. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    I think it's really important to make it very VERY clear that you don't mind if they don't like the book and you won't be the least bit offended if they don't like the book. What you need is to hear their honest reaction to your work, whatever it may be. "Pretend you don't know me." Promise you won't argue with them or think any the less of them, no matter what their opinion is.

    And you MUST honor this. If they don't like it and say so, you have to let that happen and let them continue to be your friend, same as they were before.

    You might want to also say that you get nervous if you don't hear from them about it, so if they're having trouble getting into it, or they are too busy to get started for a long time, to please let you know. You'd rather hear they can't do it than end up in limbo, wondering if they're avoiding you or what.

    And make SURE they want to do this reading for you. One of the best ways is to ensure that they volunteer. If you let it be known that you have written a book, many of your friends and family will ask to read it. If you go around asking people 'will you read my book, please?' instead, you're putting them on the spot. So avoid doing that, if you can.
     
  21. K McIntyre

    K McIntyre Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2015
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    110
    One of the best (most useful) comments by one of my beta readers was when she said she just couldn't get into the MC at all, couldn't connect. I must admit, I was taken aback at first, but then when I went back and looked at the story through her eyes, I could see what she meant. That really helped me develop the MC into someone I am very happy to know. So actually, those negative reviews are just opportunities to rethink things and grow. Or at least that's how I try to look at it.
     
  22. Spirit of seasons

    Spirit of seasons Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    120
    Location:
    Canada
    Honestly I wouldn't listen to anyone who just says "your writing sucks, or rework half of it" without giving any other feedback. Constructive criticism from people you trust, and know is always better. That writing group sounds super toxic, staying something is bad without adding any help makes them sound like a tools. I want to find someone who I can talk plot and story with, and everything in between.
     
  23. Michele I

    Michele I Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Personally, I don't ask friends and family to read my drafts. I prefer to wait for my book to be polished and published to give them a copy, those I know will be interested in reading it.

    One of the best experiences I've had was an Advanced Novel online course I signed up for with WriterDigest. You submit portions of your manuscript to be critiqued by the instructor, who is a pro in his field. Also, I had the opportunity to post portions of my manuscript for others in the class to read and give advice, and vice versa. I loved this concept, found it to be fun and interesting; it helped me tremendously. I've also maintained an on-line friendship with one classmate. We exchanged manuscripts to edit, comment, advise. It sometimes takes a writer's eye to be a good critique.
     
  24. Royal Fool

    Royal Fool New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2018
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Okay, so families and friends "suck" at giving constructive criticism - but, hey, is ANYONE qualified to give feedback?

    Robert Galbraith, on submitting the book: The Cuckoo's Calling to publishers, received several rejection letters, one (Constable and Robinson) even suggested attending a writing school may help the author.

    Unbeknown to the publishers, "Robert Gailbraith" was the pseudonym of JK Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter novels.

    So, no matter who you get criticism from, just keep writing (and submitting if being published is your goal).

    I have the first 4330 words of my novel written. A friend says it's good, my wife says it's "naive". So:

    a) Who do I believe?
    b) How do I find out who is closest to the truth?

    Most lit agents want the first 10,000 words of a book, and so I am going to get 10,000 words that I am happy with, and then submit them and see what happens.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  25. Carriage Return

    Carriage Return Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    250
    1
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    matwoolf and Tenderiser like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice