There are some rather specialised areas where submitting in LaTeX is recommended (certain technical journals, for instance). Fiction writing is not one of them. I did my postgrad computing dissertation in LaTeX, because it was by far the best tool for all the equations and for managing all the citations and the huge bibliography. But if fiction has lots of maths and a huge bibliography, it must be written for a very niche market! I don't know about whole books, but the market for non-fiction articles seems to be a lot easier to break into than for fiction. And even if they're non-paying they can have perks: I had a couple of book reviews published, and publishers started sending me free review copies of books. Saved me a fortune in the book store. Maybe I should try a couple of luxury car reviews! Advertising copy seems to be possible to break into too, which I see as a specialised branch of fiction.
Thanks for the advise folks! I do not mean to bump this thread, but in seeing several new replies offered some advise I felt the desire to thank all of you here. I wish you all the best in your writings. Me
Re- market share and what's hot right now- publishing is a really slow business. The books that are selling gangbusters right now were bought a year or two ago. Even if you finished a novel and got lucky to get an offer from a NY publisher next week, your book wouldn't likely hit shelves for 7-12 months. No one can predict what will be the "next thing". Write what you want to write, then worry about the market for it. If you write a good book (or ten good books... why place all your eggs in one basket?), odds are with enough time and patience, you'll find the right market. (Might take 20 rejections, might take 500...)
Well, most likely I will write what I already have in my head to write. But I still find this to be the strangest business advise I have ever heard of, no matter how many times it is said here. I have thought I seen and heard it all within the music business. I used to produce bands for FREE, NO MARKET is crazier than the music market. #1 Rule I learned: If there is no market, don't waste your time. If I fail to see a market I sure as hack wont bother wasting my time writing when I could be pursing more likely areas to make a profit. I am 45, I do not have time wasting years slaving at a laptop doing something nobody can give me a clue will sell. I need better odds. I cold raise chickens and get a better return on my time based on what I am being told here. I need money, no false hopes, and I think it is time I get out of the writing business before I waste any more of my life at it. I seek a profit, I can make all the art I need in other ways that make no $$ either and I enjoy it more. I already cited some examples- #2: My almost 40 year old first cozen who took his father's advise that if he got a four year degree he would be able to get a job no matter what. Ah, no. he got his degree, but choose a major nobody will hire for. And he stays in Michigan in which GM almost lost everyone's house due to not being able to see the market place cuz they were too busy trying to build the car they just guessed would sale! My cuz needed to of been told what market was hot, which was not. If he would of even glanced down the road the writing was already on the wall- yet this is a long term trend, not the fast pace ones like books and other entertainment- I understand this, but it makes no sense to me to not even try. I dont care if it's an ever changing fast market. I find this advise crazy to just write the best book I can and I might have a chance in hell of it selling. Like- Build a great house and somebody will buy it! Ah..maybe! Ok- Build the best house you can and MAYBE you will find somebody to cut you some slack and rent it at less cost than you invested! Whaa? I keep hearing the words "This is Crazy" repeating in my head right now. Nobody seems to read anything I write. I sited several examples of very fast changing markets and how anybody or any company can get screwed by not paying attention to what people want. So what if the market may change in a month? That logic applies to many markets. ' makes no sense to me to not even try to look ahead. Do not tell me that what killed Michigan's economy happens to be great advise to sell books, please. Build a great car by OUR standards and they will sell. Nope did not work. Bands try the same thing- Just write the best song you can- Zip nuttin. The ones that are successful first analyze the market and offered bits and pieces of what the customers liked in Toyotas and Hondas, Good Songwriters took small bits of this and that and put them together in an original way and POOF- It works. OR perhaps some get lucky. Time after time in many markets I see the same rules at play. The winners figure out what the market wants and trys to delivery it to them in an original way as possible. I found the advise I seek, and it sure is not to write the best book I can so it *might* sell. I need info about what types of books interest people, what styles of writing sale best, demographics etc... I wont bother with the rest of the book if I feel it stands no chance. I need $$ not another hobby. Honestly MANY markets change fast, I can think of dozens that can change within weeks, or at the drop of a hat. Nothing about writing books strikes me as having a market much different than other markets. Unemployment high? Entertainment often does good unless the economy gets too bad. Pay TV sales go through the roof during long periods of unemployment, I worked for Comcast, the more lay-offs the more subscribed to pay TV. Weird huh? Anyway, I will not write this book just for art. I play music for art. If your all telling me don't bother, then fine. I won't bother finishing it because I need money, not 2 more wasted years dreaming of the impossible doing work I never can get paid for. Unlike most here, I see it as work, not glamor. I got better ideas for a return on small investments if book writing is so impossible. Seems like a big wasted effort based on what I learn here. I'm done with writing now. It's very obvious everyone is telling me its nearly impossible to get published. So I will spend my energy doing other things that are more likely to make a little cash here at the home I am stuck in. No sour grapes, just a reality attack. I'm too old to keep chasing my tail in circles like my old German Shepperd did. She never got too far but she did lose some weight trying! I may be back, it depends. As of now I am scrapping the book idea due to all of the advise I will likely be unable to get it published, but who knows. Perhaps I cold write lyrics, even the music too. Either that or show Chevy how to build my car better!
Jammer- you play music, right? Did you decide to play whatever instrument you play and then the next day book a paying gig with that instrument? Writing is just like any other skill. There's plenty of money to be made writing fiction. But you can't just decide to write and expect that the next day top agents and publishers will be beating down your door. You have to learn your business, which means learning not only what sells (generally done by reading a lot and paying attention to what editors buy what kind of books) but also by learning how to tell a great story and then how to not shoot yourself in the foot with your query letter etc... That doesn't happen overnight. I've heard said that it takes about 10,000 hours of practice to master a craft. I've heard also that it takes 1,000,000 words of (new, not rewritten) fiction before the average writer starts regularly producing publishable work. It is just like learning anything, from drawing to music to skiing. If you want to be good enough to be professional, to do it for a living, you have to practice the hell out of it. Again, it's totally possible to make a living, and a very good one writing fiction. But the first thing anyone writes is 99.99999% of the time just like the first time someone picks up a guitar... not something anyone else will pay to read or listen to. Just the way learning new things works. As for changing markets, well, the trappings might look different (vampires! zombies! chick lit!), but in the end most readers want the same thing- a good story told well. That is the core truth of publishing and doesn't change. edited to add- if you really think you can write a good book that people want to read, and you want to skip the traditional publishing industry completely, why not self-publish? Putting a book up on Kindle is free. Google JA Konrath and see what his advice is about how to make an e-book attractive and affordable if you decide to go that route (he's traditionally published, but also put his back list and a bunch of books that were rejected by NY publishers up and is earning thousands a month now, his blog is very interesting reading). There's no guarantee that anyone will buy your book, of course, and zero money up front. But it does get around the slowness of publishing. I would recommend hiring a reputable free-lance editor, a graphic designer to do a professional cover, and possibly someone who knows exactly how to format a Kindle e-book. You say you want to research and like hard data, so do some poking around and see what other authors have done and decide from there if you choose to pursue a writing career.
I think the point boils down to, aspects such as the relatability of the character holds more weight than the scenery. Twilight probably would have done nearly as well if she'd been romancing a boy from an alien race. That would shift the hot trend from vampires to aliens. Girls, young girls, identified with Bella and her ridiculous approach at life and all the eye-candy Meyers provided said girls. That being said, Meyers didn't need to know if vampires or aliens were gonna be hot and picked one. She instead made a character that girls related to and aimed her writing style toward them. Sure, we grown ups groan at all the lame dialogue and Bella's infatuation with Edward, but to a 14 yo girl, that's what their minds are reeling around. (I'm going a lot on what I've heard about Twilight, as I never read the actual books.) What does that boil down to? Characters, not themes, play a large(r) role than most other aspects of writing. Which is one of the mantras around here, if you look. Of course, time to time, themes might peak. But let's say you had projected 2 years ago, that vampires were gonna be hot stuff. So you write a vampire book. So did Meyers and say all the other people reading those forums and websites you found. Chances of all of them making a small fortune? Very unlikely. Not even the best writing will prevail. The one that either latches onto enough people's brains and starts sucking, and/or the one with the best platform will probably win. Probably. Everything else is copycats, even if it's not. Lemme explain in terms of music. I was listening to a few particular bands for many years, who had their own particular genre. But they were mostly European local bands who eventually started to climb charts in Europe. Over here in the US, no one had heard of them. I happened to have friends in Europe which had hooked me up with some music back then. Then Evanescence became a sensation here. I thought that was fantastic because it opened the doors for these European bands, and a few did break through. Guess what? Every single person that heard them simply rolled their eyes and exclaimed how they copied the instrumental/rock/goth sound of Evanescence. A few bands did ok; most returned their focus to Europe. The US was not very accepting of them for "copying" Evanescence, but Amy Lee probably wasn't even out of highschool when some of these bands started. Point of story? Uhm. . .oh wait. If you do manage to narrow down a market, chances are countless other people have already done so either by research or by their own love for that particular theme, genre, character type, what have you, and you're still where you started -- trying to make something that outdoes them. But again, solid writing won't win every time. There's plenty of books on the market proving that. Also, your data probably shows more past trends than future trends. The future is still unforetold. Now, if you do get ahold of something that shows what *should* be hot, that's coming from publishers and agents. They're not always right. When Rowling tried to publish the first Harry Potter, she was told that it was very unlikely to sell--the market she aimed for was in a steady decline. They might've been wrong Again, I get where you're coming from because I usually do loads of research before dedicating time to anything. I respect research facts but there's certain things in life which just aren't, well, certain. Now, since your desire to write is less passion and more business, have you considered writing for magazines? They have much shorter processing time and, from my understanding, generally know what they're looking for up front. Read some magazines and see what type of articles they're looking for and aim your writing toward them. You can then later revisit novel writing and have something on your query that gives your story more weight. But honestly, if I needed quick cash to pay off a mobster, I certainly would *not* be putting my luck in writing. But that's just me.
izanobu: You are very kind in the way you make your case, I wish we all could word our thoughts so well. (I need help). lol Thanks for letting me know you did pay attention to some of what I was saying previously, as I feel many did not. If I may be allowed to answer, I choose to invent styles of playing the banjo (even heavy metal) that are a far cry from the bluegrass that so many others do not enjoy. Shucks I even get internet radio play, but no money. Maybe if I did this in 1967 it would of sold, but in 2012, I have doubts such a story wound gather any more interest. Yes I have thousands of hours times a zillion in my passion of passions. You make your case with your analogy for writing. My plan all along was to tie my life and work trying to become a "banjo-rock star" lol but I discovered it took many decades of hard work and when I finally got to the point I felt I achieved my goals, nobody cared. Let alone could I find any way of making $$ at the styles I created. My approach to music was to learn the very basics and throw away the book. Of course this made it very very difficult for me to be able to compete with other players early on that were self taught from dvds and/or books or teachers. It seemed they often learned to play traditional styles within two years, while it has taken me decades. But I did get to my goal of being original and many other pickers have told me this- Indeed being as original as I could was my goal. It was my hope I could take what I learned in marketing of music and apply it to writing fiction. I guess I feel if I can put the positive spin on it I dreamed of it would be a great rags to riches story. I seek to be original, but I believe we must follow some major rules of creative English writing. My plans have been to learn these most needed basics yet still find my "nitch" in a style of writing as well as a story I already have in my head the story, which is about as original as possible and it does have something to do with my life time ambition of playing music. I hoped it would allow the creative juices to flow faster than the editing and proof reading, and such has. I need time to step back and "re-anyalize" (SP!)this book idea. I long to invent new things, even as a five year old I wanted to be an inventor, a creator. It all seemed logical when I first came here, but the shadows of doubt have quickly jumped into what I first thought was a good idea. Even a good plan. I realize few things are as easy to do when we get started, and writing is one of them as I have already learned. But, if I may be allowed to keep the music/writing fiction analogy alive a bit longer... After decades I meet my artistic goals of inventing the heavy metal style and conversion, along with the slow process of learning how to play in a manner I am proud off and some fans take the time to email me to say how much they like it. BUT- I quickly discovered how deeply competitive music is, it's almost impossible to make a cent in the market unless your at the top 1% of the talent pool. I made the choice to keep my music the way I have been trying to play for many decades over attempting to learn to play Bluegrass and Gospel and having a good shot at a small touring band that expect all banjo players to sound like Earl Scruggs (Most popular bluegrass player in history, he is pushing 90 now). The idea for my book is related to my music inspirations. But given the fact I actually have fans, yet only sold two mp3s I have to do everything I can to avoid the same mistake again. Life is too short to go down this road again while attempting to write a book. Thats why the MARKET is so important to me. I ignored it before, and I paid the price dearly. OTOH: I dream of a book getting published that might in turn throw some light on all the work I did in my life trying to reinvent the perception of banjo players and the music the instrument can make. (Interested? Listen to a guy named Bela Fleck and The Flecktones- JAZZ banjo that everyone mistakes for a jazz guitar) So, there it all is. I have no fear sharing with the public my ideas for my book because I doubt any other person in the world has such a story to write. Also the reason I choose my avatar was because the book I have started is tied to such music. it seemed logical, almost like a bit of promotion in case I ever got published. But I fear so greatly wasting even more years of my life, perhaps doing an art I love, but not being able to make a cent at it.... Well, I just can not afford to make this mistake again, life is too short. Also my medical conditions keep me in the house a lot, and my relatives are elderly and I feel I belong here right now. I hope that makes sense. When I re-read my own words within this post it almost gives me the desire to get back to writing. But most books about musical artists that sell are about musical artist that have already made their name- And there lays my main problem and why I am aiming at fiction. It's much easier to write about one's own life and change many negative things and hopefully have a happier ending than how things really turned out. I will think this over. I need time to decide how I can continue on this path with almost no way of making a cent. I feel trapped with very few options I can afford to attempt. I'm all done posting for now. lol Me.
M and rainy: I'm sorry, somehow the last page of this forum did not load on this firefox browser- ' sure it was "user error". M:I wish I had a day job -haha No need to worry there. Im staying in a large hose with aging parents and my 84 year old grandmother. No real job, serious medical issues of my own, and little chance of getting a so called day job. - Funny, that's always the first thing I tell the Truck Drivers that think they can sing on Ch 19! (with a single exception- One guy was an awesome country singer, nobody dared say he could not sing.. But that was one guy out of a thousand) rainy: Again, at least to me, I can relate to how you break it down the best of anyone else I have read here. Please, no offense to all the other great writers and authors here. I happen to love your idea of submitting short non fiction stories to magazines! Awesome idea. In the 1990's we all thought the common newspaper and mags would be obsolete, as we can see they are still around! After posting on forum sites such as this one for what amounts to many hours some day, I must like to write or I could never stand to do this for so long. I am involved in politics, but I do not wish to get a fire started. So I need to find a subject to write about. Can anyone advise on Reader's Digest? I read they have a large circulation.... Do they really pay as much $$ for the stories they publish? If I just got a joke published I would feel rich based on what they claim to pay! Any advise on Reader's Digest? Again. rainy Thanks for pointing out how Characters are so important. I learned something by listening to old Dragnet shows from Radio years 1949 to 1957- ALL THE PEOPLE HAD THE SAME PERSONALITY!! Ya ever see or hear Dragnet? It's so obvious the same writer gave the same personality (well 90%) to each person, and they all talked as fast as one can think. I learned to AVOID writing like Dragnet, for sure! haha Well, I gotta run. I'll try and post again someday. Terry
yes, they do pay well... all you need do is go to their site and check their guidelines for the info you want...
Well, a BIG THANK YOU! To a person as poor as I am, the amount of money that R.D. reports to pay out for what is often short publications boggles my mind. I suppose they have a large amount of subscribers, eh? Well, I suppose I can at least find a section of Reader's Digest to consider. They used to have a section about humorous things that happen on the job. While I no longer hold a steady 9-5 type job, I can recall tons of funny things I was involved with in factory and white color work. Cheers. Terry
