Martial Arts

Discussion in 'Research' started by Catrin Lewis, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Community Volunteer

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    @KaTrian, you've given me a positively juicy idea. My imaginary US city has an extensive and prosperous Jewish community; in fact, the majority of my MCs' clientele is Jewish. It's true I never heard of Krav Maga back in the early '80s, but given the date you cite, there is NOTHING stopping one of my Jewish secondary characters from recommending my FMC try it. And if it's oriented towards self-defense, she might like it better than judo. Knowing her, she might be put off by the idea of bowing to the picture of Professor Kano.

    That would work, as long as she remains in the States. But in this plot, the manure's gonna hit the ventilator someplace in West Germany. Even back in 1983, I doubt they would let her bring in a handgun in her luggage.

    Though it wouldn't be a bad idea if she learned to shoot, in case she gets hold of someone else's weapon.
     
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  2. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Community Volunteer

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    She'll be fighting a third party or parties, member(s) of a cell of German Communist terrorists. I might bring her up against a man, or against a woman. I am NOT planning on writing one of those unbelievable scenes where a tiny woman with only a few months of training defeats a whole gang of armed assailants. Dumb, dumb, dumb. But one or two bad guys/gals in succession? Yeah. But probably not armed.

    It looks like I'd better research what kind of training those cells gave their members.

    The ex-Army guy is her fiance, who is facing the fact that he can't be around all the time to protect her, and suggests she go train.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
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  3. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Community Volunteer

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    At the risk of sidetracking my own thread, that's what was so moving about visiting the British cemetery at Bayeaux, knowing that those guys were ordinary bank clerks and storekeepers and so on who forever took on the identity of soldier and died for their country.
     
  4. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Getting lucky two times in a row? Sorry, I really don't see that. Honestly, the idea that a 5'1 110 lb 30 year old woman who's not terribly athletic and only takes two judo or karate classes a week for nine months could be a good enough fighter to win two fights in a row against communist terrorists sweems propesterous to me. So much so it's almost offensive.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
  5. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I'm kinda late to the party, but I'd second krav maga. I've trained it, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, thai boxing, senshido, boxing, and dabbled in HEMA, lii-kan jitsu (or something, can't remember), and pentjak silat over the course of about 25 years, and out of all those systems, km and senshido would be the most viable, but afaik senshido is too new, so km would be the obvious choice since it was designed to be learned quickly, relying on gross-motor skills because it's the system taught in the Israel Defense Forces, and soldiers need to become effective yesterday instead of ten years from now.

    Of course it's not the style, it's the practitioner, so she could train karate, aikido, judo etc. and still come out on top, but krav maga would give her the best odds in 9 months.

    Granted, the odds are still not in her favor, so supplementing her training with a gun (gaining a reasonable level of proficiency and skill in safe handling would also require visiting the range 2-4 times per month and preferably some dry-fire drills at home a couple times a week if she's serious about it), and maybe OC too if you really want to give her the best chances of survival.

    The curriculum of the civilian version of km includes stuff like local self-defense laws, understanding and being able to cope with the psychological and physical effects of adrenaline, how to talk to aggressive individuals etc, so it's not just about learning techniques. In most reputable clubs the techniques are also pressure-tested in MMA-type sparring albeit with only semi-contact on beginner levels (the first 1-2 years). Usually it's a mix of grappling with light strikes (while wearing MMA gloves and mouth and groin guards), pure grappling with no strikes, and pure stand up with no grappling (while wearing the same protective gear except boxing gloves instead of the MMA gloves as well as shin guards and boxing helmets, and you use harder contact).

    In km some of the sparring is 1 vs 1, but some is 1 vs 2-3, some is you protecting a third party from 1-3 assailants, and sometimes it's even group vs group, unarmed vs unarmed, unarmed vs weapon (knife, baton, gun etc), and so on.
    Km is a simple system but only in comparison to most other self-defense styles, so while 9 months twice a week definitely gives you tools you can use in a real fight, you're still just a beginner at that level.

    Luckily it's all up to you and the way you compose the scenario, so pretty much any outcome can be realistic as long as the setup is realistic. E.g. some granny could kill me if I was sitting on a bus, fiddling with my phone, and she approached me from behind and bashed in my skull with a hammer. I'd have almost no chances of survival even though I'd probably be tougher, bigger, stronger, and better trained etc.

    Also, a kick in the crotch isn't nearly as viable a tactic as most people believe. Men at least have an uncanny reflex to protect their balls, so it's in no way a sure shot. I have been kicked in the nuts and while it hurt, I was able to continue tussling without a hitch and I also have a permanent dent on my shin after I tried kicking a guy in the balls and he got his shin between mine and his nuts. Granted, he was an experienced MMA dude, but still.

    I have also seen guys take several kicks in the balls without even flinching during a street fight while a girl in our krav maga class got kneed in the groin lightly and went down for the count. Curled up on the tatami, hands between her legs, grimacing in pain, the works.
    Conclusion: be the recipient male or female, they might go down from a light tap in the groin or they might shrug off half a dozen full force kicks and still proceed to obliterate your ass. Assuming you can even land said kick (not to mention that kicking in a real fight is usually an unnecessary risk unless you're kicking someone who's already on the ground and you're still standing).

    At least all this means you can't really go wrong as long as the setup is realistic. :D Self-defense scenarios are by nature extremely unpredictable which is both a blessing and a curse to writers.

    Oh, and I also second @KaTrian's suggestion about looking up real street fights on YouTube. The reality of violence is often very different from what people think (and often uglier too).
    Here's one example of the kind of violence the civilian version of km aims to prepare you for (it's a random compilation from a Russian nightclub), but be warned, the fights get pretty brutal:
     
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  6. ShannonH

    ShannonH Member Supporter

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    Love the idea of the woman and her fiance getting jumped. The ex-military man gets knocked out cold and the girl has to save her guy using her martial art skills.
     
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  7. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    Actually, if he had cause to use his hand-to-hand skills on the battlefield, he won't want or need a refresher. Killing someone, no matter how justified—as long as the killer isn't psychotic—changes a person. The last thing they want is to use those skills again.
     
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  8. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Point taken.

    In the first book he contemplated using them again to avenge his GF (the FMC) on the louse who tried to rape her ten years before and got off scot free because she was too scared to tell. Luckily for his own human decency, he acknowledges that civilization frowns on that sort of thing, and besides, in the pre-Internet days of my setting, he can't find out where the louse lives.

    Nevertheless, by the end of Book Two he might well have to bring them into play. :ohno:
     
  9. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Community Volunteer

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    @KaTrian, I've watched a few krav maga videos since yesterday. It certainly ain't pretty. But given my FMC's experiences in the first book, I think she'll willingly forego aesthetics for effectiveness.

    I've got a few more vids to watch. If I have any questions, may I PM you?
     
  10. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, of course. :)
     
  11. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Community Volunteer

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    OK. But first I have to think about the plot some more and see if I can make the basic idea work. If I can, I'll get back to you.

    (BTW, the MA thing is not the basic idea. It'd only contribute to it.)
     
  12. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    That fits pretty nicely. :)

    Nine months, twice a week, would give your FMC a fairly good skill set and some muscle memory as well. What also happens after you start actively training self-defense is that your brain is switched on all the time and you keep mulling over the things you've learned, playing scenarios of what you'd do in this and that kind of situation in your head, and all this will prepare her to take action when, as you put it, manure meets the ventilator.

    If you need help choreographing the tussle, I'm happy to help (and @T.Trian as well), or we can use this thread to brainstorm, either way. Some things for you to consider while planning:
    - are there weapons present (knives, handguns, baseball bats, bricks, canes?)
    - what's the environment like (street corner, cramped room, dark parking lot?)
    - what your characters are wearing (puffy jackets, heels, skirt, scarves, eyeglasses?)
    - what are their strengths and weaknesses at the time (pulled muscles, limbs in a cast, long hair/pony tail?)
    - how many people are present

    If the assailant has the element of surprise or there are several assailants, your FMC's chances of survival drop. Even if she fights one at a time, she'll be facing off a fresh bad guy when she herself is winded, making things even more difficult for her. But if she's determined and ferocious, she will stand a chance. Hesitation and freezing, on the other hand, can get her killed/seriously hurt.
     
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  13. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale New Kitten Lost Behind the Fridge Staff Supporter Contributor

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    And if you want to learn how two people allegedly trained in really deadly stuff who have had enough to drink (plus reasons) that they feel the need to scuffle harmlessly on the sidewalk in front of a bar until somebody says "The cops are here!" so they stand up and pretend nothing every happened fight, well, I'm your man.... :rolleyes:
     
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  14. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    LOL. I have a vague memory of my hubby wrestling with his friend in the yard while their unlucky friend went to relieve himself in the bushes. He got fined. Another time we ended up in a bar fight (some guy grabbed me out of nowhere, things escalated), while my brother was relieving himself elsewhere. He got fined.

    Finnish cops: fighting is ok, but if you desecrate this fine land with urine, the government will make you pay.
     
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  15. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor

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    I'm a third degree black belt who's done martial arts of various styles for more than 20 years. I've also taught martial arts, I haven't seen anyone mention the biggest part of self defense.

    Rule #1 if you are mugged: Give them your wallet.

    9 months is not a lot of time. She's be able to defend herself if she's grabbed or attacked. Sort of. In order to successfully defend yourself if attacked, you need to be able to take a hard punch to the face and brush it off. Not be shocked, because in that second, a second strike is likely coming. She can study how to take a punch all she wants, without actually taking one, you don't know what to expect. You need to be methodical, even in the presence of a knife. That only comes from experience.

    What kind of attack are we dealing with here? Any situation where a fight can be avoided, should be taken, even if it means losing your wallet, jewelry... If it's unavoidable, she'd panic and forget the training. Seen it happen many times in simple sparring matches, in a real life situation, emotions are even stronger.
     
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  16. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    That (as someone with 20 years Krav Maga experience and who used to be a self defence instructor , I wholeheartedly agree)

    Rule #2 if giving in isn't an option (like if they want more than your money) kick them just under the knee cap and run like hell , if you put a decent amount of power behind the kick they won't be chasing you (don't try and kick any higher than the knee, you'll get your foot grabbed , if you want to go for a ball shot use your knee and step into it for extra power)

    Although actually the biggest part of self defence is being aware of your surroundings and not getting into a position where you need to defend yourself in the first place.

    The other point is that as a 115lb teeny woman her other combat advantage is that the assailant isn't expecting her to give him any trouble, so she lets him get close (possibly uses the femine wiles to get very close) then when he isn't expecting it jams a finger nail in his eye/ knees him violently in the balls/ stamps her heel into his instep and then runs.

    The draw back for formal martial arts in defending yourself is that they have rules, whereas if you are dealing with a head case with a knife/ potential kidnapper / rapist / serial killer or whatever the only rule is 'win' - use what you've got , if you're a girl with long nails use them , if you've got your car keys in your hand slip the key between your fingers and use it like a knuckle duster and so on

    incidentally i recommend this site for background research http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
     
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  17. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    One point of note (from someone with 20 yrs experience in KM) , its a really brutal martial art - the basic philosophy being to avoid confrontation if at all possible, but if a fight is inevitable to end it as quickly as possible by employing attacks to the vulnerable parts of the body.

    It's much more real world than the more stylized eastern martial arts (though it takes parts from various other arts including jujitsu). That said even so 9 months isn't going to be time for her to get really proficient, she could certainly learn some moves in that time, but the key to effective self defence is not learning some slick move to boot out your opponents knee joint - its remembering that move and employing it when you need it in real life , instead of freezing from fear ... unless someone already has real world fighting experience that 'combat reaction' takes time to internalise
     
  18. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll Loved by a Sweet lady. :) Contributor

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    I would recommend Gunkata from Equilibrium, but it hasn't been invented yet if you are looking back to the early 80s. (And is only a fictional martial art anyways :p )

    I agree with @big soft moose about clawing at the eyes.
    She could hit them in the nose with heel of the palm of her hand to stun them, zero training out side of upward striking.
    She could punch the dude in the throat, that would be unpleasant.

    But I agree with big moose, that awareness and avoiding confrontation are pretty good things to have in the old brain memory. And if all else fails, a Stiletto type heel can be used to great effect and can be quite dangerous as you can produce a lot of force on the thin heel.
     
  19. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    My KM instructor reminded us that since winters are really icy over here (who am I kidding, we have 10 months of ice and shit, 2 months of no-ice), there's always a risk to kicking. It gets even worse when you're a woman in heels when your balance is impaired even more.

    But then when I asked another instructor if a kick or slap in the balls is always effective, he said that yes, it is. However, my father-in-law witnessed a guy get stabbed multiple times yet he still kept on fighting (I don't know if the guy was high on drugs or what). So if he's basically bleeding to death, how effective will a knock in the balls be in that situation?

    Anyway, I guess what I gathered from this is that there's a ton of variables and things that can go wrong, and while certain techniques are favored because they attack the vulnerable bits and are relatively simple, even they can't be completely relied on because shit happens.
     
  20. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    a ball shot is generally effective against an untrained male assailant if it lands , but the problem is that he only need to turn his hip slightly for you to miss (truer with a kick than a knee) , also if hes trained he might push through the pain long enough to put you down.

    For greater certainty a move out of dirty fighting 101 is to grab hold of the knob and bollocks and twist vigorously ... though that does depend on his trouser arrangement enabling you to get hold
     
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  21. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll Loved by a Sweet lady. :) Contributor

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    And just because I have a strange amount of 'Adult' related facts (yes this my immature yet oddly true facts library). :supergrin:

    For some strange and not quite understood reason, there are men that don't mind getting kicked in the junk. In fact they get off on it.

    Oddly enough this is not one of the more fun or bizarre facts in that seedy library. :supergrin:
     
  22. plumsagain

    plumsagain Banned

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    If you're looking for one discipline that will get someone fight ready in just 9 months, there is none. Krav Maga has great principles for the untrained civilian who lacks street smarts, but a lot of its practitioners (usually ones who have never trained in anything else or been in an actual fight) get lulled into a false sense of security. It's basically watered down MMA (which is not a style in itself, rather a philosophy). The difference is instead of seeking out multiple specialised arts to train different aspects of their game (eg. boxing for punching and jiujitsu for grappling), Krav Maga seeks to be a complete system that is simple and easy to learn (there is no easy way to learn how to fight) with the hope that its techniques are enough for survival. A lot of it's weapon defence is dangerous to attempt against a real armed attacker and you are better off spending 9 months on a treadmill (or learning a more complete weapons art like Kali, treadmill won't hurt though). Multiple attackers? Fuggedaboudit. So instead of worrying about the discipline, think about the aspects of unarmed combat (based on the context you've given, lets forget about weapons and the threat of multiple attackers). You can break down unarmed, one-on-one fighting into striking and grappling. Both aspects demand respect and if you want to be a complete fighter, you need to divide your time training both equally.

    Striking may seem fairly simple and if you are big, strong and athletic you will always have a punchers chance, but the technical aspect of striking requires a long time to develop the muscle memory for one to be proficient. A groin kick on the pads is really not so hard to do. However, having the footwork to get into the range where that groin kick is effective takes skill. Also, increasing the chances of it landing by setting it up with feints and punches takes further skill. Defence? Probably the most important skill. KM also tends to rely hugely on the element of surprise by feigning submissiveness and pre-emptive groin kicks but has no back up plan and very little defence. What happens when a person who's been doing KM for 9 months squares up with an attacker who has done kickboxing for 9 months? Without the element of surprise, that groin kick is pretty much a telegraphed inside-leg kick to a kickboxer and he will lift his knee to check the kick like he's trained to do and KM guy now has a sore shin. Regarding kicks, I have kicked someone in the head in a street fight. That being said, I was a 2nd dan black belt in TKD and I was young, dumb and drunk. Don't believe me, there are plenty of recorded head kicks in street fights on youtube. Point is, whatever you spend your time training will show. We trained for high kicks in TKD because the more flexible your hips are, the stronger your kicks will be. Basically, if you can kick high, you can definitely kick low. I stopped TKD at the age of 14 and got a blackbelt in smoking and drinking. But I stopped all that, I'm 24 and am currently 8 months into muay thai. I have found that even after all those years, I still have the muscle memory even though I can't kick quite as high. In sparring, I have an obvious advantage over other guys 8 months in with no previous training due to my leg dexterity, understanding of footwork, timing and gauging range. Also, I'm generalising KM based on what I have seen. I'm aware that the quality of training varies according to the school. But in general, unless you are implementing these techniques against a resisting opponent who is not only defending against your attacks, but is also attacking back, you won't learn how to be effective against anything other than a heavy bag.

    On grappling, while you're on youtube take a look at how many times a street fight ends up on the ground. When you take too many punches to the face, some one rushes you, or either of you get tired, grappling is instinctive. This starts standing up as well. Boxers clinch up when they want to smother their opponents punches, hoping to tire them out by leaning on them til the ref breaks them apart. In muay thai, the clinch is an essential part of the sport where thai fighters exchange elbows, knees and sweep each other onto the ground. In sports that are purely grappling, judo and wrestling focuses on taking the opponent down to the ground. While strength is always a factor, timing, balance, weight distribution and leverage play a bigger part in grappling. This is more apparent when the fight actually continues on the ground. Brazilian jiujitsu and catch wrestling are the two leading arts in groundfighting. The former is a descendant of judo and is famous for the early ufc days where mixed martial arts fights were more pure style vs style. Royce Gracie was submitting boxers and wrestlers that were bigger, faster and stronger than him to prove jiujitsu's effectiveness. I currently have 2 stripes on my white belt in BJJ (10 months training so I am similar to your character) and despite my background in striking, I had no idea what it was other than what I had seen in fights. The first few weeks are the toughest and I came home bruised all over my body but like everything else, you get used to it. Few months into it, you feel carved outta wood. 6 months into it, wrestling my untrained friends who outweigh me and benchpress a LOT more than me, I have been able to submit them with relative ease. Most BJJ schools start out teaching basic self-defence principles too before they get into any sports-oriented stuff.

    Edit - Oh yeah and I have wrestled with a few girls half my size and gotten choked out. That shit is real humbling lol

    Anyway, late reply but hope that helps.
     
  23. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

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    It was my dad's friend and afaik he was sober at the time: he got into a tussle with a guy who knifed him in the gut several times. The fight went on for a while longer, but then my dad's friend collapsed without a clear reason.
    He later said he never noticed that he was stabbed; he thought the guy had just punched him in the stomach lightly a few times, but then after a moment all his strength disappeared and he couldn't even stand anymore.

    Nobody else noticed the stabbing either until the guy fell down, bleeding all over the place. That's when my dad and the rest of his friends jumped in, and the knifer ran away.

    Just goes to show how unpredictable fights can be. It's such a complex mix of physical activity and psychology that if you can't avoid the fight and can't run away, I'd say the most likely thing to increase your odds of survival would be disabling your opponent with a KO or some other way of incapacitating him because most of the time you have no idea what your assailant has taken (i.e. what substances might be boosting his pain tolerance, aggression etc), what he has trained/experienced (is he just a drunken rando or a professional thug who also competes in MMA etc), so relying on pain compliance can be pretty risky, especially for a smaller person fighting against a stronger assailant.

    Of course the character's size and inexperience would make it harder to KO an aggressive guy, but there are tools like saps, blackjacks etc. (I've been told it's not horribly uncommon for girls in Ireland to carry a sock or something like it with something heavy inside; essentially a makeshift blackjack) that allow even a weaker, smaller individual to KTFO of a bigger dude running on adrenaline and amphetamine because a hard hit to e.g. the jaw/chin/temple has a high likelihood of taking out a guy regardless of pain tolerance, strength etc.

    Just be mindful that such an action can kill a person, be it from the impact itself or if the guy cracks open his melon on the pavement when he falls down while being unconscious.

    Anyway, I'm not saying that's the way, just a way and food for thought.
     
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  24. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I agree on your first point that no one can learn to take out multiple armed attackers in 9 months (in any system) , but speaking a someone with 20 years KM experience (and a G3 instructor grading) most of the rest of your post is cobblers - KM is not watered down MMA ... a high G or E graded KM practioner could kick the arse of pretty much any MMA fighter without pausing for breath ( MMA doesnt tend to involve smashed knee joints and collar bones and strikes to the throat etc because its a sport and killing or crippling your competitors is generally frowned upon - KM was designed for comandos and the E level people tend to be counter terrorist or swat type practioners)

    For fighting (as oposed to sport) a good rule of thumb is to keep your feet on the ground , or at least no higher than knee height - I've no idea where you get the idea that Km relies on premptive groing kicks - a kick at waist height is asking to get your foot grabbed and then you are at minimum going to be upended into a ground fight - if youre up against someone with training you'll get your knee joint broken.

    KM relies on speed agression and uncompromising violence to finish the fight as quickly as possible - with the basic premise being do what your oponent isnt expecting - so if someone is dancing about and feinting you need to close the range asap and then do something to stop him employing his fighting style of choice - smashing a knee joint will take a kick boxer out of the game because with only one leg he can no longer kick effectively (also the pain from knee and for that matter ankle injuries is incredible)

    I've no interest in turning this into a "I'm harder than you are"pissing contest, but you are talking about stuff you don't understand
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  25. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

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    @plumsagain I'd say KM does have its challenges, especially since some little shits claim to teach KM but actually teach only glorified point karate or aikido or some such, so I'd say that if your KM school doesn't have sparring as a part of (almost) every training session, you need to find a new school/instructor.
    Also, local self-defense laws and the psychology of self-defense should be a part of the curriculum. Otherwise you won't have a full skillset because self-defense is more than just the physical stuff.

    In our KM school, we alternated between the same type of sparring we did in my former muay thai school (not a surprise as our instructor was an ex-world champion in full-contact kickboxing) and submission wrestling with light strikes (hard enough to give me a bloody nose, though when a huge dude g&p:d me) as a finisher for the day's class. I can't think of another way to learn to hit and get hit and get used to contact than sparring with hard enough contact.

    Of course the problem is that self-defense is a far more complex activity than e.g. boxing, so styles like ("proper") KM will always have the downside of producing jacks of all trades and masters of none while e.g. boxing or BJJ teaches you a specific skillset better and faster, but there the downside is that that'll then be your only skill (ever wrestle with a pure striker?) which can cause big problems on the street if you trained e.g. only striking and end up on the ground, trained only grappling and end up against 2-3 opponents etc, so yeah, there are no easy ways to learn to fight despite the marketing speeches of some schools.
    There are, however, differences between systems, and one designed specifically for self-defense (by capable pros) is imho still the overall best choice.

    When you have only 9 months, you basically have to choose between a higher skill level in one specific area of a vast subject or a lesser skill level in several areas of said subject.
    I'm not necessarily the best person to evaluate the choice because I've trained martial arts since I was 5-6yo, so I have no idea what my skill level would be if I had never trained anything and now trained something for 9 months.

    However, I wouldn't necessarily want to rely on one skill alone. Good instructors won't drown newbies under a flood of new techniques, but instead know how to teach the most pertinent stuff first to give you a few simple tools/tactics that can be applied to a variety of scenarios.
    I think Geoff Thompson's Fence is a pretty solid example of a versatile tool that can be used in many ways in many different situations and can be learned very quickly (successful application in a violent confrontation still requires training, of course).

    But I'm not a professional, just a long-time practitioner, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.
     
    KaTrian likes this.

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