Martial Arts

Discussion in 'Research' started by Catrin Lewis, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Incidentally weapons defence is a dodgy proposition at best - I've faced people with knives before and I can confidently say that the absolutely best option is to either give them what they want or run like hell.

    if those options arent on the table then you're an idiot for letting yourself get cornered, but at that point the basic premise is control the man not the weapon - hollywood gives us the myth of kicking guns out of hands and wrestling weapons away from attackers, forget it , its a fantasy - however if you can seriously damage your assailant wiothout getting badly cut then his weapon is going to be useles to him - a man with two broken collar bones can't use a knife , a man with a dislocated knee can't do anything (and someone with a crushed trachea is going to die - but obviously don't do that unless you really have no option or you are somewhere where that sort of violence is aceptable, like in combat)

    In terms of research as I may have mentioned before www.nononsenseselfdefence.com is a good resource.
     
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  2. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Oh yeah, let's not turn this into a "my style is better than your style" mess.
    This is a pre-emptive de-escalation. :D
     
  3. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

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    @big soft moose absolutely agreed: awareness and avoidance are the most important parts of self-defense, but I know there are situations you simply can't avoid or run from, so it's a good idea to prepare for the worst.

    Of course extensive training combined with knowledge of the law, understanding of psychology of violence, and a simple mix of weapons (preferably a gun and 1-2 mêlée weapons like knives, impact weapons, OC, tasers etc) that you have also trained to use effectively (if carrying concealed weapons is legal in the area) would be optimal, but since afaik that won't be the case in this story, the options are limited, especially if the mc isn't willing to sink 4-6h per week in h2h training, 2-4h per week in gun use, and a session or two where all of it is combined (like e.g. Southnarc's classes). Most people tend to train 2-4h per week at best, so whatever the choice, things will probably be far from optimal.
     
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  4. plumsagain

    plumsagain Banned

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    I don't know where you got the idea that I'd be interested in a pissing contest. All due respect, you haven't said anything new to me. Just a lot of strawman arguments and the usual generalities KM practitioners tend to recite. Why do you seem offended? I said nothing bad about KM. It IS watered down MMA because you cant box as good as a boxer or wrestle as good as a wrestler. It isn't as specialised. You also seem to think MMA fighters have no concept of fighting outside of the rules of sport. Or that everyone who trains in MMA competes. Or that MMA is a system in itself when I specified that it was not. A mixed martial artist can train in Krav Maga as well. To continue my hypothetical, when the 9 month old KM guy gets his groin kick checked, he will not only have to deal with a sore shin but an even more pissed off kickboxer now that he has threatened his jewels lol. Dirty fight tactics are not exclusive and when they are employed, they better end the fight quick, because you are escalating the stakes of the confrontation. Come on, mate, what am I not understanding here? Seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but all I have to do is youtube a bunch of KM videos and most of their responses to attacks are surprise kicks to the groin followed by disabling the opponent when they're down and escaping. KM is based on surviving and escaping. Not fighting head to head.

    "KM relies on speed agression and uncompromising violence to finish the fight as quickly as possible - with the basic premise being do what your oponent isnt expecting."
    So you agree with me?

    "For fighting (as oposed to sport) a good rule of thumb is to keep your feet on the ground , or at least no higher than knee height"
    I agree that it is a good rule to not do anything riskier than a leg kick/groin kick in a fight. But I also gave you an experience where I didn't do that and why. Anecdotal evidence based on first hand experience is never really convincing over the internet so I told you to youtube other instances of head kicks happening in street fights. I never recommended it. I am assuming by "smashing a knee joint" you are referring to an oblique kick ala Jon Jones? Yeah, easier said than done.

    I HIGHLY doubt a pure "KM practitioner could kick the arse of pretty much any MMA fighter without pausing for breath". I would never even claim the opposite. That is stupid, sir. I do not care how long you've been teaching it. If you are so sure, please tell me what the KM practitioner's main strategy would be? Also, do you spar in KM using knee kicks and strikes to the throat and groin? If not, I don't see how you have any more training in fighting dirty than an MMA fighter does.
     
  5. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    yeah that - looking back at the OP this girl is going to be fighting german communist terrorists ... now while its true that in some groups your terrorist might simply be a thug , if she's dealing with baader meinhoff / red army faction type people those groups were extensively supported by the east german secret police , the staasi so its likely he'll have had some unarmed combat training from people who really know what they are doing , so 9 months of KM or JJ or whatever isnt going to be a great deal of use.

    I'd tend to suggest that her best bet in these situation is weapons of opportunity - someone can be the nastiest hardest best trained combative in the world and it won't do them any good if she smashes a brick or a steel bar into the back of their head by surprise

    If he knows she's there then the only other thing she has going for her is the fact that as a small girl he might not think shes a threat which gives her a small window of opportunity (plus as i mentioned theres the femine wiles option) , at that stage her best bet is dirty fighting - eyes , lips, throat and balls stuff. Women sometimes have long nails, and if she can get close enough to jam her thumbnail into his eye he'll be at a major disadavantage ( especially if he was written as only having one eye or something) , the other long nails attack is tgrabbing hold of a bottom lip and pulling and twisting while sinking your nails in - thats good for breaking free from holds.

    The other break free I used to teach women in self defence class was stamping a stilleto heel down on the top of an assailants foot or into their instep - but thats going to be less useful here as he'd probably be wearing combat boots which woukd protect him from that sort of thing

    Perfume atomisers/aerosols can be used as a self defense spray if directed at the attackers eyes (again get close with the spray concealed in your hand - let him think you arent going to resist his advances then hit him with it up close... then while he clawing at his face knee him in the balls and run ... or pick up a brick and hit him with it , depending on whether you want to be getting away or just taking out the terrorist for other reasons.

    Once shes dropped one , they'll presumably have weapons, so taking his gun is probably the option - and its not beyond the realms of possibility that a young american woman could be good with a pistol
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
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  6. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    And this is where the difference lies - you are looking at a bunch of you tube videos, I'm talking from 20 years experience and a G3 level (and instructor) qualification. As K trian said there and awful lot of charlatans out there who are alledgedly teaching KM without really knowing what they are doing (this is true of all MA but particularly of KM at the moment) which is where the youtube videos come in

    Personally I'd never suggest to a trainee that they go for a groin shot as a preffered move, because as i said its too easy to cock it up and wind up on the ground. (there are of course KM moves that involve attacks to the groin but they wouldnt be my preffered option for a relatively inexperienced practioner to employ) - the only exception being if you are grabbed from the front by an assailant who is holding both arms (as in a lot of sexual assault) - then you are prefectly positioned to drive a knee into his balls

    As I said a this style is better than that argument isnt going to help the OP , so my suggestion to you would be to find a good Krav Maga school preferably one affilaited to IKMF and go and see for yourself.

    That aside I do agree that someone with 9 months experience (who'd probably be a P1 or P2) is not in anyway ready to take on an armed terrorist
     
  7. plumsagain

    plumsagain Banned

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    Well, I told you I do not train in KM. I have done my fair share of research on it as well as several different martial arts (I would train EVERYTHING if i had the time and money) so I can only go by what I have seen online and from other people. I have heard that many KM schools have MMA programs and sparring which is great. Mcdojos have been undermining the reputations of martial arts for many years so no surprise there. I've also been training since I was 5-6 so I guess it is hard for me to imagine being completely ignorant of combat. So maybe KM would be a great way for a beginner to start getting educated. However, the more I learn, the more inadequate I tend to feel when I realise how little I know. The reason I ruled out the threat of weapons or multiple attackers is because in this specific context, there is no realistic way a complete beginner will be able to deal with these threats proficiently with just 9 months. Of any art. Even if they train in several.

    "Personally I'd never suggest to a trainee that they go for a groin shot , because as i said its too easy to cock it up and wind up on the ground." I never said groin shots are not effective, so I hope you didn't think I meant that. The point was, unless you implement it in sparring, you are not going to be able to gauge the distance very well. You will also have to set it up with a feint or punch before hand so they don't see it coming. However, I don't see KM sparring with protective goggles for eye gouges, or doing groin kicks when they spar simply due to safety. So it all ends up looking like MMA anyway. There is nothing stopping a mixed martial artist from turning an inside leg kick into a groin kick or punching throats. So my point was why go to a burger place to get noodles when you can go straight to a place that specialises in noodles. Ya feel me?
     
  8. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I obviously can't speak for every school, but we used to do a load of live sparring , target pads, and also use dummies to practice the more disabling stuff - although i'd note that eye gouging, biting , weapons of opportunity etc isnt on the KM curriculum anyway ( I was an infantry soldier before I was a martial artist so i picked up a lot of dirty fighting which would never make it into any respectable martial art )

    I don't want to give the impression that i'm knocking other martial arts - I've a lot of respect for Gracie BJJ and indeed for Muay thai and MMA as sports .. Ive a freind whos a MMA fighter coming from a Muay Thai background and I doubt I could beat him in an MMA bout.. though i'd be a lot more confident in facing someone like that in the situation the Op is talking about where no ruiles apply
     
  9. plumsagain

    plumsagain Banned

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    Fair enough, but when you claim that any KM practitioner will beat any MMA fighter without getting short of breath, you do come off like you want a pissing contest lol. You couldn't pay me to have a "styles" debate. It is a dead horse and the whole reason why MMA came about in the first place. There is no perfect style. Train in everything and anything that works. Train to defend against everything and anything that works. Fuck a style. Style becomes dogma. Be water, my friend.
     
  10. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    To be fair i didnt say 'any ' i said an E level KM could kick any MMA fighters arse in a real fight (probably not in an MMA bout since a lot of the moves an E would employ would be against the rules in MMA)

    Just to clarify in Km there are the Practitioner grades (P 1-5) who are people learning it as students , then there are the Graduate grades (G1-5) who are instructors plus very high level students ( as i said i'm a G3), then there are the Expert Levels (E1-3) - Experts are whole step change, these are people who do stuff like train counter terror units and other special forces in unarmed combat.

    My point being that Km as practiced by experts and high level graduates is not just watered down MMA .
     
  11. plumsagain

    plumsagain Banned

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    I mean, sure, okay. But you seem persistent with this notion that an MMA fighter can't employ the same dirty techniques in a street fight (not an MMA bout). Like they can't fight without rules or something. So what is it that an E level KM practitioner can do that an MMA fighter can not? Please, as someone who is an instructor with 20 years of experience, I would genuinely like some specificity. Have you not seen the early days of the ufc where there were no rules? You do know that a submission is basically a mutual agreement between two fighters that in a real fight, a fighter would've been crippled or killed right? Legal MMA techniques aren't exactly 'safe' in real life either. Ever caught a knee to the face? Not pretty. People who are in counter terror units and other special forces do not specialise in unarmed combat. They train unarmed combat in a nutshell since they need other skills in their occupation. MMA fighters specialise only in unarmed combat. I don't even know why you think this is a valid point. Historically, you know what else has been taught to the armed forces? Pretty much most other martial arts. Again, not knocking KM at all. 20yrs training and shit, you'd better be able to defend yourself. And any legit training at a reputable school in ANY discipline is better than no training at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  12. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Sure anyone can fight dirty (even someone with no training) , but an MMA fighter isnt trained to the same level as the top end KM experts , and years of training that insist that you don't for example punch to the throat or employ bone breaking moves are a serious handicap when facing someone who doesnt fight the same way you've been trained. (Also to clarify I have 20 years experience in KM not 20 years as an instructor - I got my instructor qual in 2006 - and as i'm not an E level fighter i'm not quaslified to answer the question of what exactly they'd do )

    Also MMA fighters do not "specialise in unarmed combat" , they specialise in unarmed sport fighting , which is where the key difference lies - unless hes also a soldier or similar (and i know a few are) even the best MMA fighter has very little experience of combat, and in an actual combat situation his years of experience that say you can do x but you can't do y will not only be irrelevant, but they'd militate against him

    This is the weakness of all martial arts when employed for purposes other than sport and recreation , even KM (except at the very highest level) that they insist that you follow a given set of rules - and that is a serious drawback when your oponent doesnt follow any rules at all.

    Whatever i suggest we agree to disagree and give caitrin her thread back
     
  13. plumsagain

    plumsagain Banned

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    Well, I asked you if you implement these dirty tactics in sparring and you said you do live sparring (without specifying what techniques or safety gear you spar with), hit pads and dummy work for the unsafe tactics. Dummy work to me is the same thing as hitting a heavy bag or pads. Nothing compared to actually using them during live sparring against a moving, resisting attacker. You SEVERELY underestimate the people who fight for sport. Not only do they train to go the distance, they train to fight another equally highly skilled opponent. Not some random thug on the street. Funny that you think every martial art is flawed except KM (at the very highest level). Even funnier that you realise that each martial art in a competitive environment has rules but don't realise you train KM under the same rules. I mean, either that or KM sparring is so realistic that it is a no-holds-barred death match all the time. I agree with your suggestion, and I think our discussion has been helpful. Or at least I hope it has.

    Edit - If you wanted some examples of MMA fighters who actually grew up fighting and/or know how to deal with a street situation, here are a few off the top of the head - the Gracie family, Bas Rutten, Roger Huerta, Nick Diaz, Frank Shamrock, Mark Hunt, Brock Lesnar (wrestler but even then, he has had legit fights and grew up fighting)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    The top KM experts in the world are nearly all commandos in the isreali defence forces or similar - I strongly suspect (although i don't know) that they don't train to the same rules that civilian martial artists (including civilian P & G grade KM fighters) do.

    Whats really funny is the idea of any sport fighter being able to take down someone like Eyal Yanilov (in his prime i mean - they'd probably have a chance now given that he's 57 )
     
  15. plumsagain

    plumsagain Banned

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    Bro. No. I literally just youtubed him and the first thing I saw was everything I have already seen before. Attacker has a knife but is not resisting for the demonstration. Yanilov has his palms out feigning submissiveness, attacker lunges at him with a knife, he parries to the outside, three quick, short right crosses to the face while controlling the knife hand with his other arm, GROIN KICK and disarm while throwing a BODY KICK (didn't you say you don't do those?). Not knocking the moves or his speed for his age. Like I said, it is good training and better than no training at all. But there is no way he would last 5 rounds with the champion of his weight division. That is laughable. In an unarmed, one on one street fight, it will end quicker. "Sport fighters" are leagues above you so I don't understand the disrespect. You won't even specify your sparring training. You spend your time throat-punching wing chun dummies. These sport fighters (regardless of the saftey gear and obvious rules distinguishing these fights from being all out death matches) are actually fighting full contact. It's a whole step above sparring. I don't see elite Krav Maga practitioners compete full contact ever unless they've already had training in other disciplines like kickboxing. But then it's still kickboxing. Not Krav Maga. At this point, I'm seriously doubting your credibility on this matter, but I'm happy to continue playing devil's advocate.
     
  16. plumsagain

    plumsagain Banned

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    Also, if "all the top KM experts in the world are nearly all commandos in the Israeli defence forces" and "they don't train to the same rules that civilian martial artists" how is that even relevant in this matter? So it's unavailable to civilians? You have to be an Israeli commando to be proficient at KM? How does that help a 5ft girl in the Midwest trying to defend herself within 9 months of training? I'm telling you, 9 months of training in only two disciplines (preferably a striking art and a grappling art) 2-3 times a week consistently and she will be much more comfortable defending against a single attacker. 9 months of training in BJJ and she will have developed a decent guard (aka "missionary" in case of sexual assault), not only that, she will have been implementing these techniques during live wrestling against resisting opponents of varying sizes (they don't train striking in BJJ). If KM is the only thing you've trained in I suggest you try out a free BJJ class. Choose a girl smaller than you who is a blue belt or above and she should be able to humble you over and over.
     
  17. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I'd like to point out that on the street, tactics (which include awareness, avoidance, subterfuge etc) are probably the most important and decisive aspect of self-defense.

    For instance, a completely untrained woman could kill Brock Lesnar with a brick to the head from behind when he's unaware of her presence.

    In the context of the scene, the guy is assaulting her. That means she's at a tactical disadvantage; she has to react.

    In that situation a gun would be the best choice if she noticed him early enough to draw, aim, and fire or, if he's closer, draw and double tap (pressing the magazine base against her trigger finger side's breast to avoid a jam caused by clothing getting stuck in the slide while aiming with an imaginary dick).

    If he's too close for that, OC, stun guns, and knives would be the next best thing because knives are far more dangerous than guns on bad breath distances.
    The caveat is that in order to be successful with a knife, you really need to have trained its use under a proficient, experienced instructor. Otherwise she might end up hurting herself or having the guy disarm her or even use her own knife against her.

    The reason I think a knife in capable hands would be a bit better than OC and stun guns is that knives are meant to disable the opponent while OC and stun guns might not provide the desired results if the guy can push through the pain of OC or the stun gun, maybe the prongs miss, he has a thick jacket on etc.

    If she e.g. goes for a single leg takedown, she could sink the knife into the guy's asshole and cut him open from his anus to his balls even if the takedown attempt failed. That would also make pursuing her much more difficult, the blood loss would weaken the opponent pretty quickly, and of course such a wound would be very painful as well as demoralizing.

    But that's just one example out of countless other ways the scene could play out. It all depends on what the OP wants to do with said scene.
     
  18. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    That - and another good point about knife play is that a deep cut to the inside of the thigh is as good as a cut to the throat or wrist and a damn sight easier to deliver - although the main hazard with a knife that doesnt have a hilt is that your hand goes forward over the blade and it sinks into your palm

    Incidentally it might be worth mentioning that OC is pepper spray - I know that is oelerum capiscum but the OP might not
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
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  19. big soft moose

    big soft moose All killer, no filler. Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Just to add OC / CS/Mace etc aren't legal in most european countries * so its not likely that the OP would have flown in with it from the states (similarly for tasers ) , a decent lock knife on the other hand is dead easy to buy in hunting or camping shops (although its still ilegal to carry - but if you are going up against terrorists legality may not be the prime concern)

    * portable fire extinguishers in either powder or Co2 make a good alternative - you can pick up tiny ones about the size of a big can of deorderant and they are seriously incapaciitating when used without warning.
     

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