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  1. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    Modern colloquialisms in fantasy?

    Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by Stormsong07, Jun 21, 2018.

    Urgh, so I'm having this issue where I'm suddenly doubting my use of various modern colloquialisms in my fantasy set in a medieval-type world. Simple ones, like "hang out", "badass", "suck up" and such. Do you think this will pose a problem to the reader? I'm careful to keep technology period-appropriate (if you can call laundry techniques and using candles to mark time segments "technology lol). I'm concerned using modern phrases will pull the reader out of my world, yet I don't really know how to rephrase them. Thoughts?
     
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  2. BlitzGirl

    BlitzGirl Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think that's much of a problem, since fantasy worlds are fictional worlds that can go by any rules. It would only be a problem if such colloquialisms were used in a story about our own world, during a time period where those didn't exist. And if such terms are used frequently, then I'd say that just gives your world character. It very well may be a case-by-case basis, of course. I'm no expert, but I don't think I'd be worried by it if that's how this world was set up.
     
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  3. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Depends on the feel you're after. I dig the film Your Highness. It's fun, not meant to be taken seriously, and they certainly have a good time making use of more modern syntax and verbiage overlain with that faux medieval feel, but it does certainly strike a tone with the viewer.

    [​IMG]

    If that's not the tone you're after, then I would say no, don't use those phrases or words. All the words you mention have different ways of saying them that, while not necessarily more "medieval" in any technical way, wouldn't carry that same tone and register of modern casualness, assuming you don't want that overlay of modern casualness.

    Hang out can simply be spend time together, break bread together, enjoy fellowship, etc.

    Badass is a scourge, a hero, a woman/man of great character, etc., depending on context.

    A suck-up? "Oh, Sir Littlejohn is ever obsequious with the queen. More lapdog than knight, I would say."

    There are countless ways to say those things, especially given that your examples are all fairly modern in coining, yet describe concepts that are age-old.
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    They would absolutely pull me out. If your story is meant to be largely comic, it could work, but not otherwise. Somehow the TV series Britannia gets away with it, but they have tons of production money, expensive actors, visuals, and music, to re-persuade you that the setting is real.
     
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  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I agree that they would pull me out, and would agree with @Wreybies that using them is missing a really valuable opportunity to add depth and flavour to your setting. If you can figure out what the general idea of the phrases is, and then consider how people in your setting would express those ideas, I think you can help readers really get a feel for the kind of world you're working with.
     
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  6. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Yeah, I'm a stickler for perceived anachronisms. (And some are only perceived; see The Tiffany Problem.) If it sounds off to you, I'd bet it'll sound off to other people and I'd find a substitute. You can always write it the way that comes most naturally, mark it, and come back to it later in editing to keep from breaking your flow in the moment.
     
  7. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    I think that's what I'm going to have to do. Thanks for the input, guys.
     
  8. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    I'd be pulled out too, unless the book is clearly and purposefully anachronistic in its intent (like Hamilton, Jesus Christ Superstar, Pippin...sorry, all of my anachronistic references are musicals :geek:). I agree with Bay that finding alternate terminology will add to the world-building aspect of your story. It will also help improve your vocabulary, which is a very valuable tool in every writer's toolbox.
     
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  9. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    It's fine. I mean, your whole story is presumably being written in modern English, right? So unless a colloquialism is world-specific (i.e. refers to technology or history or something that exists in our world but not in the fantasy world) I think it is just fine. If you're writing the story purposefully to take on an archaic tone or style, then of course you'd leave such things out.
     
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  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Eh...there's modern English and there's modern English. I realize that there's no particular logic in being OK with words and phrases coined in 1870 and objecting to ones coined in 1970, but all the same, the second jolts me and the first one doesn't. I think that my comfort point is whether the thing entered the language after the birth of someone who is still alive. So, 1900 is about my limit. For my WIP, 1800 is my limit--not that I research all the words and certainly not all the usages, but when I wonder or a reader wonders and I look it up, that helps me decide.

    A quick Google tells me that "hang out" can be tied to 1967. (Not sure why it's so precise.) "Badass", 1950s. "Suck up", 1970. For me, that's all just too modern. The word/phrase/usage should be deeply embedded in the language and should not "feel" new to anyone who isn't a linguist.
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    But we're talking about a fantasy world, not the real world. Why can't the phrase "hang out" have been coined 10 years, or 100 years earlier in the fantasy world? To me, it is simply a matter of consistency--if the writer is writing a fantasy story that uses modern language and slang from the beginning, then that's fine. It sets a certain tone, and establishes my expectations that the fantasy world includes such slang (or at least includes slang that is the fantasy equivalent of the modern slang being communicated to me).

    On the other hand, if I'm reading Lord of the Rings and 3/4 of the way through Aragorn says "Yo, Gimli, you're one badass m-fer," that's going to throw me way out of the story (especially if Gimli has the wallet to prove it).

    Everyone's mileage varies on this as a reader, though. I'm only giving my reaction to such usages, and I know people will differ on it.
     
  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I think that's my issue. To me, that tone would be comic by default, and if the author isn't going for a comic tone, I think he'd have to work quite hard to escape from it. I don't know if my reaction is usual or unusual.
     
  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I see what you mean. I'm thinking to incidences of such colloquialisms being used in fantasy, and the ones that come to mind do tend to be more toward the comedy end of the spectrum. I'm interested to look at my library and see if I can find anything like that in more serious form.
     
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  14. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I've experimented with it a lot (see my blog). I really like the use of modern slang. It doesn't pull me out at all. I figure that people in that time and place would have their own slang, and I immediately translate it as an understanding that the characters are using their own, informal speech. It lets you draw a thicker line between soldiers and kings in the dialog.

    That said, I've never once had someone tell me, "gee, I really like what you are doing with the informal dialog." Maybe 50-75% of readers don't notice it at all. Everyone else hates it, so I tried to purge it from my recent book. For more people, it works better without it.
     
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  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    See, I have no issue with informal dialogue. I separate that from slang.
     
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  16. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I was about to say the same thing about "A knights tale" with Heath Ledger.

    That aside it also depends on whether feel is more important that absolute accuracy .... if the slang you are using is the way in which a character would have spoken that's good enough and may be better than an exact depiction
     
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  17. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    It may nto be your thing, but perhaps reading some Shakespeare would help? Within his work, or maybe Marlowe, you may find some vocabulary to suit your purposes.

    Another option would be to create yuour own phraseology - much more difficult to do and would likely take up too much time to perfect it though. This is something I have tried to impliment my fiction with mixed success as part of the wordl building process.

    If I rememebr rightly this is for YA’s? If so yuo may be able to get away with one or two, and they could even help your audience too, but that said I wouldn’t underestimate the intelligence of your audience either and the expectations they have. I’ve not really read anything in that genre for some time so I’d recommend (if you haven’t already) copying what other successful authors do; “copy” meaning to fish for some different alternatives.
     
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  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Drifting back to address this part:

    In my WIP, I used "pass the time with" where you might use "hang out". That was the phrasing of a character who has a rather formal voice even in his own world. My more casual character might use "waste time" or "idle". I admit that those don't have quite the same flavor. Google-thesaurusing offers things like "hobnob" or "fraternize", but that feels more like a description of friendship than a description of activity.

    "suck up"--the main example in my book used "lap dog". And there's an ongoing metaphor of an eager-to-please puppy. There was also "pet" and "puppet" later.

    "badass"--Google-thesaurusing offers nothing interesting here, and neither does my WIP. In the WIP, the word "brute" was used, but that was in a negative context, and I assume you're looking for a more positive one.
     
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  19. Stefan Tabit

    Stefan Tabit New Member

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    I personally think it's a completely valid stylistic choice to use modern terminology in fantasy settings. In a universe like some of the Final Fantasy games, or the How to Train your Dragon movies, they don't necessarily use "hang out" or "badass" in those universes, but to me it wouldn't be out of ordinary for words like that to pop up given the circumstances. It would definitely imply a much more lighthearted, humorous, and casual tone... but also inviting.
     
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  20. Guglich

    Guglich New Member

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    I loved reading through this thread! @Stormsong07 I see it's been awhile since the discussion continued. I'm curious to know what you decided and how your writing is going. For what it's worth, I'm gonna stick my two cents in now...
    I get that in many cases, this could be a personal preference for writers. I've read fantasy and sci-fi novels where the writer didn't care about using terms, phrases, and colloquialisms that are native to Earth cultures. And I have read some that did. Personally, I have always appreciated when an author included those things in his/her world building to give it that more authentic, otherworldly perspective. In the end, I think it all comes down to the kind of story you want to write. I do agree with many of the comments above that if you do use these common terms, it will give your story a less authentic feel.
     
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  21. DeeDee

    DeeDee Contributor Contributor

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    If your whole book is written in modernish tone and language, then those quirky words will be a natural part of the world you've built. There are fantasy writers who've chosen to do that, to various success. But if you look at the bestsellers in the genre, you'd notice that most of them are not written in a very contemporary style and avoid modern slang. They describe worlds similar to our past history and keep the language also quite oldie-worldie. It's the fantasy readers chosen preference for the moment.
     
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  22. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    For "hanging out" what about "consort", maybe "indulge" "romp" for a slightly more modern setting, or just specific descriptions; "drink", "gossip" etc?
    For suck up there's good old "sycophant", "silver tongue" or "flatterer".
    Unfortunately a lot of this stuff starts coming in in the Early Modern rather than Medieval period but since it's fantasy the 1500s stuff is probably close enough that nobody will mind too much.
    For "badass" how about "spitfire" or "wildcat", which would be more female, or "dragon" and "lion", those would work for colourful terms. Or more formally you could they are an "expert", "master" or "senior" fighter. What about "champion" or "hero" even, if it's positive? Or to describe the quality in person, action or object "fearsome", "awesome" and "mighty" are general use, though they don't work as a noun precisely.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
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  23. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    Honestly a lot of what we consider "modern" colloquialisms aren't modern. "Hang out" and "hang around" and terms like that are centuries old probably and seen in actual diaries and writing from long, long ago. Concepts like "he's my bro/brother/etc" are even more ancient, as are concepts like "this sucks", in fact you could look and probably find stuff where people, IRL, said something to the effect of "this sucks dick" or something similar--the idea, the concept, and the terms are beyond ancient. They're considered "modern" because media tells us it's modern but really they're as old as time, we just say them differently, and honestly not even that different.

    More over, a Fantasy world is NOT the real wold, meaning it's not OUR world or our history. So in the world of, idk, Arendelle I could imagine the term "this sucks!" and "he's my bro!" existing. It's not our world, so even if it weren't ancient it wouldn't matter because, in their world, it is ancient and it is normal because their history will be different--wildly different no less--than our history.

    Just like the fact Star Wars is ostensibly set at some point in the extremely distant future, but people have British accents, or how Warhammer 40,000 is set TENS OF THOUSANDS of years in the future but they have chosen to use Ancient Latin as their primary language ("High Gothic") instead of English. Their history is so wildly different than us, it becomes irrelevant. You can just write it off as being how things work in that era, or that parallel dimension if it's fantasy, or whatever.

    tldr, no it wouldn't bother me at all.
     
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  24. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Can you source anything here? I can't find anything for hanging out in the modern sense earlier than post-cold war and "hang" as in associate is also only 1840s. Not exactly "centuries" if it's less than two-hundred. Neither is sucks very recent, early 1970s. The concept of brother as a non-literal expression of bonding is extremely old and wide in use but expression for it don't exist with the term "bro" until recently so that feels like a deceptive point. The concepts of many of these things did exist, and there's plenty of counterparts in old vernacular for many terms, but the question here is about actually using modern terms. Your point here seems to be blur the lines between using the modern terms and using counterparts, which are two very different responses to this question. Most of the people criticising the former for anachronism would suggest the latter for better historical feel.
    Also, Star Wars is set "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far way" and it could easily be considered "language substitution" like some English language films in foreign setting like Ancient Rome do, the same applies to accent. Given Latin has survived thousands of years as an academic vernacular and subject to strong record and historical interest, it makes perfect sense it could be used as a future language.
    As other people have already addressed in this thread but I'll emphasise here, more people are going to be annoyed than actually get increased enjoyment from using the modern terms , unless you want a light tone. There's little benefit IMO in using them because most people who would be okay with them would be okay with obviously justified historical or relatively-historical language, but people who dislike it to some degree are more likely to make it part of their actual decision-making. IMO if people want to write fantasy without taking historical period comparisons seriously you should either make it a more modern context or make the historical parallel less of an obvious reference to Medieval Europe. If you want to be original and distinct from historical setting be actually original. Do it with some king of meaningful strategy in mind. Many stories seem to just do this stuff on instinct because other people did it like Tolkien, who actually uses early Norse and Anglo-Saxon references more than the High and Late Medieval primary in your vanilla fantasy. One of the things I like about the Song of Ice and Fire books is while they add various fantasy and generally alternate elements and the historical parallel is limited, you can tell he put some actual work into the Medieval Europe parallel. And Tolkien was an expert in myth and language who spent years designing history and fictional languages and such. If your not going to put in that work, what are you doing it for? What theme or style does this setting even serve that you actually need?
     
  25. 18-Till-I-Die

    18-Till-I-Die Banned

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    @Oscar Leigh
    Well, I don't have "sources", but honestly I'm sorry these terms didn't spring up fully conceived with connotations and ideas behind them in like 1990 or something. "Hang in there" and similar terms and concepts, meaning "stay with me" or "be with me" is nothing new and since the idea of frankly "suck a dick" or something MUST be beyond ancient. Maybe two centuries doesn't seem ancient but to even exist in that context they must have existed, or the concepts and idioms they evolved from existed before that. I may be wrong, I can easily admit that, but I genuinely doubt that someone just starts saying "flipperwiggle!" online and then ten years later flipperwiggle has dictionary entries and meanings in society. Words come from or evolve from somewhere, concepts and idioms do too, so since "suck" has as far as I know never had a positive connotation, "this sucks" meaning something bad seems well within reason as just a human concept from some time immemorial. As for sci-fi settings...that's a whole other discussion but I have trouble imagining, seeing as Latin is basically a dead language NOW, that forty-thousand years in the future we'll still be speaking it and speaking it as a primary dialect. Or more so, I have no problem with the IDEA, but let's not pretend it's remotely realistic or plausible.

    And beyond that, I stand by my argument that you can't have "anachronism" in a fictional fantasy world. It's fantasy, it's not sci-fi where you're at least assuming it exists in some kind of future or some world that breaks off from ours. Fantasy worlds are...well fantasy. In The Warhammer Fantasy world, they had at least two world-ending cataclysms I know of, which resulted in the world being remade by a God. In the LOTR series one of the driving concepts is that some ancient entity created a magical ring with completely nebulous, utterly undefined powers that will "rule them all" and it fell into the hands of a screeching midget after a civil war. Hell in Frozen the main idea is that some princess cracks up after her boyfriend dumps her cause he found out she had nigh-omnipotent ice-manipulation powers that could CREATE LIFE FROM SNOW. You can't have "anachronisms" in a world where a jilted princess almost causes a second Ice Age because she's mad her boyfriend left her after he found out she was a demigod, or a world where some kind of giant eye...monster...thing can forge a ring that controls the universe in a volcano that subsequently gets stolen by Tattoo's crazy cousin. In some contemporary fiction or historical fiction yes, or even sci-fi, but pure fantasy is that--it's pure fantasy, it can't be "anachronistic". Otherwise then all of steampunk as a genre is anachronistic since we didn't have giant robots or airships in the 19th century. The entire Avatar the Last Airbender series is anachronistic as it has nary a hint of actual, ancient Asian beliefs or concepts or language.

    And I know that can sound snarky as shit and I mean no insult whatsoever to fantasy fans, I'm a huge fan of "gunpowder fantasy" and steampunk, but really it's true. Pure fantasy is pure fantasy, you can't have anachronisms in something that's just a fanciful escapism. Unless they start throwing around terms like "Google" or "Twitter" something, which are actual things and have actual histories. Then it would be a genuine plot hole, since obviously Mark Zuckerberg didn't exist in Arendelle so if all of a sudden Queen Daenerys starts talking about her Facebook page something is amiss.
     
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