Mythology Inclusion vs Appropriation

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by ManOrAstroMan, Jun 9, 2016.

  1. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I don't know how much information is out there that you can avoid retailoring, at some level. There are a lot of resources for myths and legends from various cultures, but yet they're pretty specific to those cultures. If you look at the role of myth in a culture, it's inextricably tied in many ways to that culture. If you find sources for those same mythological elements that are much more vague and dissociated from culture, it is probably because someone else has already retailored them so that they are more generic.

    Myths arise sort of organically from the values and beliefs within a culture, so they strongly reflect it. If you're looking for source material for myths that don't have a strong connection to culture, I'm not sure there is good, well-researched source material that lacks it. I have a fair amount of literature on myth, legend, magic, ceremony, and the like, but they're all heavily tied into the origin culture.

    Am I understanding your question right?
     
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  2. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    To the OP, @KaTrian and I have a story where we bring together a myriad of mythical beings from a myriad of cultures and eras.

    A couple of thoughts regarding appropriation: first, in order to count as appropriation, you need to take something away from someone. From Merriam-Webster:
    " to take or use (something) especially in a way that is illegal, unfair, etc."

    As far as I know, e.g. Stephanie Meyer did make her interpretation of vampires kinda silly in my opinion, but did she take anything away from the vast number of different countries, cultures, and peoples that have vampiric creatures in their cultures' mythologies? I won't think so until I see some evidence of such a theft.

    Who owns myths anyway? To answer that question, ask yourself how are myths born? From what I've read, they're largely born out of folk tales that someone at some point came up with. Moreover, if you delve into several different mythologies, you'll find a ton of overlap. Case in point, vampiric creatures exist in a vast number of cultures with slight variations to them. Now, I'm not saying all lore of vampiric creatures is borrowed from one source, but it really does look an awful lot like there's been a ton of borrowing between various cultures throughout the ages because there's so much overlap and not just with vampiric beings (dragons, anyone?).

    So if mythological creatures are largely born out of someone's imagination, by borrowing one from another culture, or borrowing one and then applying your imagination to it to change it slightly before integrating it into the folklore of your culture... if it was fine way back when, why wouldn't it be okay now? Especially considering you're trying to write a story, not create a new mythology for a new culture, right?

    So yeah, Kat and I have included a ton of mythical creatures from various cultures into the aforementioned story. Some creatures we've incorporated as is, some we have changed because of various reasons, some we've had to color greatly with our own ideas simply because they're so obscure, there's next to no information about them available.

    Of course it should go without saying that if you want to do a good job, you most likely need to do your homework because how else can you make informed decisions about whether a mythical creature fits your story as is or if they require a bit of tweaking? Besides, we love delving into the lores of various cultures simply because they are so fascinating, so it's a win-win situation.

    As far as religious figures go, because we're atheists, to us they're just as fictional as any other mythical beings unless there's historical evidence that so and so has actually existed. Currently the only beings in said story that originate from religious texts are demons of various kinds (Solomon's Key has provided us with plenty of ideas), but we have changed pretty much all of them to suit the story because why not? To us, demons are as fictional as e.g. vampires, and if it's okay to take liberties with depictions of vampires, it stands to reason it's okay to take liberties with demons too, regardless of whether they're of Slavic, Japanese, or Jewish origins or whatever.
    Note, again, that we do do our homework before implementing or changing anything simply because we feel that, for us, that's the best way to go about it; first read everything you can find, then make an informed decision about whether the mythical being in question needs any tweaking.

    We know some people somewhere may disagree or find us to be horrible people and mythology thieves, but we gave up trying to please everyone long ago, so we're willing to pay that price if someone chooses to get offended.
     
  3. Nicole-tan

    Nicole-tan Member

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    @T.Trian well said.
     
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  4. Nicole-tan

    Nicole-tan Member

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    Oh god forbid I should get something wrong about some foreign culture.
     
  5. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Why is this deranged thing chasing me? Seriously what did I do to pique it's interest? I am scared, and there is no where safe. Running for my life as this being, creature, entity, whatever the hell it is. Relentless is it's pursuit, and is creepy as hell. Through woods and deserts, across seas and oceans, and over mountains it stalks me. Teleporting in and out of reality at leisure, taunting me and tormenting me with it's chilling presence. It mostly lurks around at night, but will occasionally appear during the the day time. Biding my time and counting it down until it decides to tire of the chase and take me with it to wherever it comes from.
    Oh crap, it's close now and my watch and phone are going haywire, and no one is around as it creeps closer. I can't move paralyzed in fear, as the tall slender figure approaches staring at me without eyes. Sweating I try to scream but nothing leaves my mouth, and my eyes wide as two large hands reach down to me. Then we vanish into another dimension, and I am set upon a great wooden table like a roasted boar. And in my final moments before being carved up I realize that I am to be the feast of the Slenderman, as he consumes my flesh and soul, how exactly I don't really know, but he consumes me out of all of existence.

    Not exactly mythology in the old sense, but what do you want? I say use whatever preexisting mythos you want, just don't try and change it unless you can make it your own thing. Otherwise it will fall short somewhere along the way. The more abstract the mythological creatures are the easier it is to get away with turning them into whatever you wish, but t. he more refined and defined creatures are going to be a whole other can of worms and be a pain in the hiney.

    So good luck, and all the best. (There is something behind you.)
     
  6. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    An interesting (and anecdotal) aside regarding the bindi, wearing a sari, etc. One of the young associates I am mentoring at work this summer is a Hindu female. At lunch today, I put this question to her since we were discussing it on the forums. She said she doesn't find the use of a bindi, or traditional clothing, by others to be offensive at all. She said it's just a decoration, like any other decoration, to her mind. She recounted that one of her good friends is Irish, and sometimes when they go out she will decorate her friend's face with a bindi.

    As a separate interesting aside, she recently became engaged and at a ceremony last friday her hands and arms were covered with very beautiful, intricate henna work. I'd never seen that before.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  7. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    @Steerpike well she doesn't have to pick up house hold duties until the Henna is gone. At least that is what I read somewhere a long time ago. :p
     
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  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I referred to my discussion at lunch as anecdotal, however that brings up another interesting issue around this topic. When people allege that a certain population is going to be offended by something, it is almost always based on anecdotal evidence. There has been someone complaining on Twitter, Facebook, or what have you and that complaint picks up steam and then is echoed by others. It is by no means a scientific sampling of the population in question. Often, many of the complainants are progressives riding in as a sort of white savior to take offense on behalf of the pertinent population, to tell them they should be bothered, as though they can't decide that for themselves.

    Equally problematic is the tendency to treat the pertinent population as a monolithic group. That's something that frankly has a long history of racism and/or othering behind it. There are over a billion Hindus in the world. How many of them have expressed any concern over people wearing a bindi, for example? How many of them should have to express that concern before you find it problematic? Or is it sufficient that an exceedingly small but vocal minority express concern? Where is the line drawn in such cases?
     
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  9. ManOrAstroMan

    ManOrAstroMan Magical Space Detective Contributor

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    In the hopes of dragging this thread back in line with my op:
    As I said in the OP, my story focuses on faerie mythology. It's not a "Fantasy Kitchen Sink", to borrow a TvTropes term. No vampires or werewolves, though there are blood-drinking faerie creatures, and fae who turn into animals. Wizards exist as humans with a bit of faerie blood in them. There are ghosts, and the...let's say the possibility of demons, or at least unfriendly Things from Another Place. (If the Fae can move between worlds, what else can?) But gods and the like aren't involved.
    Obviously, faerie creatures from places like Germany and the UK are in my world's bestiary: pixies, elves, dwarfs, goblins, etc. And I've included things from Greco-Roman mythology, too, since they don't really require much tailoring to fit the world: nymphs, fauns, harpies, etc. Even some Japanese youkai are compatible with my book's cosmology, like the kitsune or yuki-onna.
    But beyond that, I'm having trouble finding enough information on things from other parts of the world to include. My findings on a lot of mythical creatures from the Americas or eastern Europe or Africa seem to fall into two categories: the first category is so vague I have nothing to work with. You get maybe a couple of sentences of description, and you can't really do much with it. The other category lists very specific, definite origins/functions for a creature, leaving no wiggle room for interpretation.
    So if somebody knows something about mythological creatures and can recommend a book or reliable site for research, or can suggest some creatures to look into, whose origins are nonspecific enough that I can work into my worldbuilding, that would be fantastic.
    That's what I was looking for. Appropriation was probably the wrong word to use, but it's what felt like the applicable term at the time.
    And, if anyone has questions on my story's worldbuilding, pm me, and I can provide info for you to work with.
     
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  10. Mumble Bee

    Mumble Bee Keep writing. Contributor

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    La Chupacabra, literally means "Goat Sucker".

    It's a local mythological creature from central America, that one could be fun.
    Also the Jackalope, its pretty much a bunny with deer horns.

    Both of these are local to America (well Texas, and i guess Texas was part of Mexico but... eh, it works)
     
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  11. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    @ManOrAstroMan That is a great thing you came up with: Fantasy Kitchen Sink. May I borrow this? :p
     
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  12. ManOrAstroMan

    ManOrAstroMan Magical Space Detective Contributor

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    @Chained I did consider the chupacabra, but wasn't sure whether to make it a "person" type being, like the dryad or sylph, or a "monster" type being, like the gryphon. And jackalopes! I am including jacks in another project which has more of a BPRD flavor.
    Of course, I did anthropomorphize the Salamander, to complete the tetrad of Paracelsan elementals, so chupacabras could be feasible as a "person" type.
    @Cave Troll it actually came from TV Tropes, so, feel free, as far as I'm concerned
     
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  13. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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  14. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Thing is, there are people who worship the Greco-Roman pantheon in the modern day. They might be utterly insignificant in terms of numbers, but they do exist.

    Turning to the OP, the Little People of various Native American tribal legends might fit. There are a lot of different beings in the category.

    http://www.native-languages.org/little-people.htm
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
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  15. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Philip Pullman twisted elements from my culture to fit his needs in His Dark Materials -- and it was awesome! I was particularly impressed by the creepy creatures called nälkäinens when I first read the trilogy as a kid. They don't exist in our mythology, and even "our" depictions of witches differ from his vision (case in point, the character of Serafina Pekkala). I think the twist has to be blatantly disparaging to the culture/mythology to actually become problematic, and I'm not sure if a writer who doesn't go out of their way to create that can actually "hurt" other cultures. But afaik, you're free to twist and turn elements from say Slavic mythology as, surprise surprise, mythologies aren't anyone's property and they have changed and gained new variations often over centuries anyway.

    I'm also glad Nalo Hopkinson wrote The Salt Roads despite using a Christian saint Mary of Egypt as a character. She's my favorite character in the book and Nalo's vision of her story is engaging and interesting.

    I'm glad Glen Duncan wrote I, Lucifer despite using angels, Jesus, God and Lucifer, of course, as fictional characters. It's a hilarious book. Probably offended some people but entertained even more.

    It's going to be difficult to sidestep every potentially upsetting element, and trying to do so can stifle your creativity. Offense is rarely given, but it can be taken from any work of fiction. Even an effort that is meant to be respectful toward everybody can still contain characters and depictions that "get it wrong" in someone's opinion.

    Don't be afraid to use your imagination and augment already existing mythological creatures to fit your needs. It's being done all the time in fantasy literature. You'll hopefully notice when your addition is offensive or ridiculous (sparkling vampires). If you need help brainstorming Slavic mythology I can try to help, I've read up on the subject quite a bit. And @Nicole-tan , if you need help with Finnish mythology or have questions, feel free to ask. I'm not sure how much information there is out there in English. :p
     
  16. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Anyone heard of Good Omens? Are Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman bad people? Yes, there is a way to do it wrong, but as @KaTrian said, the boundary is exaggerated. There's no need to be hugely sensitive about these things. If your not doing anything rude, it's just a story.
     
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  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    @KaTrian - side note, have you read The Last Werewolf, by Glen Duncan?
     
  18. plothog

    plothog Contributor Contributor

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    Does it make a difference if it's set in the real world or not?
    Angels are a common feature in Dungeon and Dragons style fantasy kitchen sink worlds. In such settings it doesn't feel to me like they're meant to be biblical angels.
    If I see them in Earth setting, then I tend to assume they're working for some version of the Christian god, and therefore depending on handling have a greater potential to be seen as blasphemous by people who are concerned about that sort of thing.
    Maybe that's just me though.
     
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  19. ManOrAstroMan

    ManOrAstroMan Magical Space Detective Contributor

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    @X_Equestris thanks for that link. It'll give me a good place to start researching!
    @Oscar Leigh I'd heard of a couple of those, but a few are new to me. Thanks!
     
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  20. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    I've been meaning to read it. I take it's good? Is it a series?
     
  21. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    There are three books. I've only read the first two, and they stand alone as self-contained novels. Very well written.
     
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  22. John Kirk

    John Kirk New Member

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    I have done substantial amount of research into the folklore and mythologies of the European and Mediterranean arenas, as I developed a role-playing game based on it. Outside of those arenas, I have only a passing familiarity.

    If you can describe what characteristics in mythological creatures you're looking for, I can probably point you in the right direction.

    I'm new here, but I assume there's a way to PM. If you do, I can provide you with links to the three monster books I wrote for that game (free download). Also, if you need it, I can provide you with references to any of the creatures in those books.
     
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  23. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    It's the conversation function you can find in your profile or if you click the member's username you want to send a PM to (start a conversation).
     
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  24. SweetOrbMace

    SweetOrbMace Member

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    You might check Middle Eastern/Arabian Jinn (aka Djinn or Genie). There might be some issue as they are still part of the Islamic faith, but they are attested in pre-Islamic regional beliefs and are quite fun in Islam anyway since they are made of smoke and fire. They are not angels, but exist alongside angels and man as created by god. There's an argument that they are derived from the various ancient regional pantheons (not massively dissimilar to the Greco-Roman pantheons, there was obviously some exchange and later appropriation assimilation of beliefs as various empires came and went), which are also worth checking out. Obviously there is the story we all know involving lamps, but there is a whole genre of jinni stories where they get up to all kings of hijinks - good and bad.

    The Mesopotamian pantheon in particular has some fun guys who operate in a grey area between god, demon, and what we might call a fairy. Most well known of these thanks to his appropriation appearance in the Exorcist is Pazuzu, demon king of the wind and brother to Humbaba (aka Huwawa) monster of the cedar forests.

    As for reliable online sources, I'm sadly not aware of any. However, my professor at university insisted that Wikipedia was reasonably reliable in this field due to its obscurity.
     
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  25. Xenovista

    Xenovista New Member

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    There is no such thing as cultural appropriation. It is an imaginary political barb created by philistines to stifle creativity and more importantly silence authors whose political views do not align with their agenda.
     

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