Need imput (mainly from females)

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Alesia, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Hummm.....
    Well, this group of family and friends strikes me as having some ideas that are different from what a majority of folks in most Western countries have expressed as far as this type of issue. Or they seem to be particularly sensitive to it, for whatever reason. Given this, it seems to me that you have three choices:

    1) Write it in such a way that you emphasize there is absolutely no contact whatsoever and no thoughts or feelings that could remotely be interpreted in any way as sexual. This might be difficult to do, and might result in an awkward and unnatural piece of writing. But, you might be able to figure out a way to do it, especially since you are familiar with the thought process of these folks.

    2) Write it in the way you think it seems natural. If your family and friends see sexual undertones, despite your lack of intention to have them in there, you simply deal with the fact that they don't like what you have written and accept whatever consequences stem from this. This may include writing it and showing it to others but not to them, or it may include showing them and dealing with their reactions.

    3) Don't write the piece. If you find it impossible to write it in such a manner where you cannot establish that there is no sexual element to the characters' relationship to the satisfaction of your family and friends, just don't write it, or don't show it to them or to anyone else.

    It's really up to you to determine what's most important to you. If it's not that important to you to write this particular story, and there is a high probability that your family will take offense and make things difficult for you, maybe it's best to write something else. If this particular story is important to you, then you have to weigh which considerations are more important - your family's reaction and feelings toward you or your artistic expression. This is really something that only you can answer.
     
  2. Alesia

    Alesia Pen names: AJ Connor, Carey Connolly Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,031
    Likes Received:
    285
    Location:
    Morristown, TN
    I'm thinking it's mostly a matter of let the audience think what they will. There's some people out there that no matter how much you establish the fact they have boyfriends and have no feelings toward each other, will read something else into it. Far as I'm concerned, that's their problem and not mine.
     
  3. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Unless one of the girls is bisexual or a lesbian, there's no sexual feelings amongst female friends. Females are used to extremely close relationships (being future mothers it is a part of their biology) while men perhaps have a tendency to transform into sexual, females are not like that.

    Having said that, older females (25+) if they are single and unable to find a man, might briefly consider a relationship with a female friend, but if thy are hetero, it'll be the emotional support rather than sex that they'll envisage.

    Also, you have sexual experimentation, but that's quite separate issue, usually to do with alcohol and peer pressure of some sort. I have't seen that happen a lot between friends (and if it happens, it's usually due to non-hetero sexuality).

    For your book, there's no need to have any sexual feelings between two friends, but it you want that, it's also possible, so it's up to you what you want to write about.
     
  4. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    Just to reply on a general note (oh, for the sake of clarity and cohesion, I have to use stereotypes as examples here, so sorry about that and bear with me):
    I used to suck at writing women. So I made a point of writing as many female protagonists as I could in order to learn the skill of writing credible females of various ages (12-45 at this point, I think). To me, the most challenging things were writing females interacting with females; I usually made them a tad too touchy-feely. KaTrian has been a big help just like I've helped her with her male characters. We have both improved a great deal since that first book we wrote, thanks to all the practice.

    Of course one can write anything and always say they are just writing an exception to whatever "rule" (like a woman writing a group of totally "normal," burly very straight guys who train MMA together and when they're in a post-training sauna, they start complimenting each others' butts and plonkers in all seriousness... yeah, not gonna happen... unless it's one of those exceptions to the rule). In that case anything goes: you can do no wrong because you can always call it an exception. However, if you don't want to go down that route, you do need practice, most of which consists of trial and error. And before you can do that, you just have to face the fact that you suck at writing the opposite sex even if you used to think you were great at it.

    Anyway, I've found that to me, as a man, writing women is a skill just like writing dialogue or description or anything else: (perfect) practice makes perfect.

    Someone wondered why men expect female characters to turn lesbian even when they've been established as straight. I think it's only natural, kinda like expecting a fight scene to break out in a book/movie because they are interesting. In a similar fashion, men are fascinated by lesbians at least partly because lesbian scenes have one benefit over straight scenes: you don't need to sprain your eyes trying to avoid, eh, material that doesn't interest you. And I bet a big part of the fascination is simple curiosity: the world of lesbians is a ladies' club, men have no place there, so naturally we're intrigued just like every straight boy has wondered what really goes on in the girls' locker room.
     
  5. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    This is exactly correct, but it strikes me as directly contradictory to what you wrote in your original post and in several replies. You were very concerned about the reactions of your friends and family. You seem to have resolved your question.

    T: I think you're exactly right. However, not everyone is willing to learn, and I'm not sure everyone is capable of doing this. Or maybe capable of allowing themselves to do this. Some folks are so enmeshed in their own gender's style of thinking that they're not even willing to consider anything different. Someone just told me I had the mind of a 23 year old guy, at a critique night while reviewing a short story I wrote. I've got some mixed feelings about that -- not sure it's really a good thing. But I was very glad he thought I had nailed the character (no sexual reference intended.)

    As far as what many straight men think goes on in girl's locker rooms, dormitories, sorority houses -- yeah, that's on display in many places. I'm amazed at the number of movies I've seen with a scene in, say, a sorority house, and the women are lying around topless, maybe just wearing panties, while reading a magazine, brushing their teeth, and of course, a few are leaning against each other somewhere, perhaps one with her hair in curlers, and maybe a few might wear a baby-doll nightie, but the remainder are almost naked. I remember commenting to my husband one time, "you guys can't possibly believe this is what really goes on?" But I suppose it's a nice fantasy for you guys. I don't know any women who've had any such fantasies about fraternity houses.

    Many men have explained the fascination with lesbians, so I get it. I understand why most porn features a 3 way, but not with two men, and why there are always scenes with no man (in straight porn, anyway.) What still amazes me is the quickness with which men will jump to a lesbian assumption if two women are depicted. Sexual thoughts are always much closer to the surface with men than they are with women.
     
  6. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    Well, it'd be kinda... well, gay if the frat guys are "lying around topless, maybe just wearing panties, while reading a magazine, brushing their teeth, and of course, a few are leaning against each other somewhere, perhaps one with his hair in curlers, and maybe a few might wear a baby-doll nightie, but the remainder are almost naked." And if they are gay, well, there's a saying here in Finland: "when real men make love, women are just in the way!" :D


    Sometimes it seems we are hardwired to automatically think "maybe they will kiss?" whenever there are two or more females in one place. It's some preprogrammed hope that's really hard to shake; it's usually the first thing a guy thinks when, e.g. he reads a book and two females are introduced (even if separately).
    As for the second sentence, I believe that's because somehow men are less capable to deal with lack of regular sexual gratification. Most women seem to handle a dry spell much better than most men, although there are exceptions in both camps, of course. It's annoying for a lot of guys when they'd like to focus on something, studying, work, whatever, but can't because they're just so goddamn horny that their brains don't produce anything sensible except image after image of... well, you know. At times like those it'd be nice to have a switch to flip to "asexual."
     
  7. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,642
    Likes Received:
    481
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Really? Hey I'm as red blooded as the next guy and while I agree when two women are in an intimate setting, a part of me is waiting for the kiss but I'm not sure I've ever been so horny my brain malfunctioned. Maybe it's a Finish thiing... I've been to Finland by the way - I know how liberal you guys are!
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. TerraIncognita

    TerraIncognita Aggressively Nice Person Contributor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,332
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    Texas
    That's the spirit! :)
     
  9. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I did have to chuckle at the idea of fraternity boys lying around in panties and baby doll nighties. I'm not sure what the underlying scenario would be for that one.
     
  10. sanco

    sanco New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    17
    Lol, are you targeting a male or female audience? You can't really control what people think. They'll interpret your work through their own lenses.

    A possible way to suggest an innocent relationship can be to make the girls considerably younger. But I'm sure there would be SOME people who would read that sexually as well.

    I think it's irrelevant. I loved "Fight Club" way before I read reviews pointing out the inherent homoeroticism. I still love it and noticing it doesn't take away from the fact that it's not what it's about.
     
  11. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    Might be you're right. Now that I think about it, most of the guys I've seen kinda go blank when they're really horny and a hot girl is getting them all worked up have, indeed, been Finnish. Then again, I asked about this from a Norwegian guy and he just nodded and went "ja ja." Might be a Scandinavian thing, then...
     
  12. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,642
    Likes Received:
    481
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I brought my nine year old daughter to Saraselka, above the artic circle, in the hotel she saw signs for the sauna, was mad to go in, see what a sauna was all about. Me being a little innocent brought her in - big mistake!

    The hotel pool, complete with many 8 seater jacuzzis (within full view of the reataurant) was closed to children after 8

    In my country you'd pay for such "experiences". In Finland - nothing out of the ordinary

    moral of the story - do not bring children to Scandinavia!
     
  13. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,604
    Likes Received:
    151
    Location:
    the shadow of the velvet fortress
    Okay, well, I spent 7 years at an all girl boarding school (finished school when I was nearly 18). We were very conscious of our bodies changing because some girls were developing faster than others, which made most us undress very carefully under our blankets etc, none of the confident walking around semi-nude you see in movies. However, there was a kind of reverse rebellion sometimes--one group (yes, I was one of them) would go skinny dipping in the school pool at midnight (horrifically dangerous, now I come to think of it), and there were just a few girls who had deep crushes on each other. I only remember 3 definite lesbian relationships going on, and with no internet those days they were relatively innocent, really. And those girls are not gay now--I think they are all happily married. Only one girl ended up deciding she was gay, and she was always into boys as a teenager.

    At the end of term, we all piled on the train to Charing Cross to get the plane back to wherever our families lived, and there were always great scenes of hugging and kissing goodbye, which I remember the English used to look on at with absolute horror. It was much more unusual in those days to see girls kissing, even though it was done in a purely affectionate way. Mostly our interactions were like that, we would be very affectionate to each other but it was just like we were close relatives. It was not done out of sexual attraction, nor did it lead to it.
     
  14. Trilby

    Trilby Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,097
    Likes Received:
    73
    Location:
    NE England
    I don't see how you think that close friendship/bond between females is anything more than just that, a friendship - end of.

    Forget same sex friendships for the moment - a male and a female can have a very close friendship without having or developing a crush on each other.

    What goes on in someone else mind as to what they may think, is their problem, let them get on with it.
     
  15. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    5,393
    Location:
    Funland
    Yet somehow we don't go raving gay on each other en masse despite all the nudity... :)
    So yes, it's possible for people of the same sex not to have sexual feelings towards one another even if they're close. It's possible even if they're close and naked. Even if they're close and naked and in a group stuffed in a sweaty hut.
     
  16. funkybassmannick

    funkybassmannick New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    828
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I think this illustrates sexuality in an important way, so thank you for sharing. I think it's more likely that sexuality is a spectrum rather than two or three categories. (Or at least nearly infinite categories) Say some of these girls are, on a spectrum, 90% straight and 10% lesbian, then perhaps they would be more satisfied in a heterosexual relationship, but when no males are present than they are perfectly fine with a lesbian relationship. Also, while research suggests that sexuality is definitely not a choice and relatively the same since birth, it could be possible that sexuality fluctuates day-to-day and year-to-year.
     
  17. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Is that adorable baby with you in your pic the same nine-year old? Or is this a new baby?
     
  18. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,642
    Likes Received:
    481
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    That 9 year old is 16 in November. Baby number 2 in my arms is nearly 10 months - adorable? Not at 4am! I'm sure you're been there :)
     
  19. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Ah, but they're always adorable even if you're ready to run screaming from the house. As I always say (especially about my 3 y.o.), he is extremely lucky he's cute.
     
  20. Ellsbeth

    Ellsbeth New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    I love my bestie very deeply, she is my soul mate. when I was a teenager I was very confused about my feelings towards her being hetero or homo, it wasn't until I got older and actually fell in love that I realised the difference. We lived together for a while after high school. we slept in the same bed but never had a sexual relationship. (if anything ever happens to her I don't know what ill do.) but it goes like this, I love my boyfriend as much as I love my best friend id give my life for either of them and I want them to be part of my life forever simply because I will miss them too much otherwise. my best friend is another part of me I cant operate on my own because I never have our mums are friends and we were put together for everything in life the teachers at our primary school had to keep us in the same class until third grade because we would throw huge tantrums when separated hahaha
    the difference between her and my boyfriend is, where I want to be around her I want him to be around me, id be quite happy to be completely surrounded by my boyfriend to the point I am him its something you don't understand until you fall for someone. there is no way I suppose to show the difference because at its core its love. but its also understanding, acceptance, loyalty and trust. from a psychological stand point my bestie has been with me from day dot until now and she has seen the very worst of me, and still loves me. we have also felt the same emotions that girls feel and the same traumatic becoming a woman experiences. so in that regard when your besti comforts you its with complete empathy.
    the only eg I can give you is this.
    you have just been absolutely wacked in the sore place, your girlfriend runs over while your on the ground rolling, holding your crouch the worst pain imaginable. shes all over you being huggy and trying to help you up. tells you how much pain you must be in etc
    same scenario different day, this time a mate of yours runs over (probably laughing really hard) hes going to give you your space, let you go do what you need to do. etc I don't really know the recovery process but the basic fact is this, your mate knows how much it hurts he knows exactly what your going through your gf while feeling bad for you really really dosnt understand the pain.
    I don't know if that helps?
     
  21. Oswiecenie

    Oswiecenie Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    196
    Likes Received:
    54
    To be honest, I think you should simply write lesbian porn. A friend of mine does it and earns good money with it.
     
  22. La_Donna

    La_Donna Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    11
    A really great book that shows women becoming best friends through circumstance (written by a man!) is "A Thousand Splendid Suns" by Khaled Hosseini. It might give you some inspiration!
     
  23. suddenly BANSHEES

    suddenly BANSHEES Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    148
    Location:
    the wasteland, baby!
    Interesting how only "gay" and "straight" have been brought up in this thread - sexuality's not all black and white, you know.

    But as for OP's question, even if one or both of your characters are gay/bi/pan/what have you, the fact that they were pretty much raised together would rule out any sort of sexual or romantic tensions between them. When you've been that close to a person for that long, they're more like family than anything else.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice