New York Times Bestseller List?

Discussion in 'Marketing' started by aikoaiko, Oct 16, 2014.

  1. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    That thread was started by an article criticizing King's writing style. I suggest you look in to it, it's a good one. The members here very quickly and quite rightly stand up for King and call the author of that article a bloody fool. However, it must be said, King's style isn't perfect as members in that thread also point out - he has his flaws. Doesn't everyone unless you are some sort of Pynchon - some sort of impossible genius? :D
     
  2. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    I cannot understand why anyone would take a work of fiction and spend the time breaking it down to examine it at a philosophical level. What's the point in that if the author didn't intend there to be a philosophical level to it when he/she was writing it?
     
  3. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Who is to say they didn't? Isn't that why we break it down?

    Everyone has ideas outside of their fiction. You'd have to be a pretty boring person, and pretty dreadful writer, to not have your other interests and opinions influence your writing. Even if you don't know it - especially if you don't know it.

    King has his politics, he's a 'Democrat' I think. The question those articles try to answer is 'Does this show in his writing?'. And to be honest, even a casual reading of his novels shows it does. A lot.
     
  4. plothog

    plothog Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    650
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    England
    To argue against myself.
    It struck me that you need someone reasonably literate to write a comprehensible review on anything. - which might make it hard to find someone representative for books where the intended audience is something like shallow teenagers. ;)
     
    Lemex likes this.
  5. MilesTro

    MilesTro Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes Received:
    101
    Location:
    Springfield
    I agree there are crappy books getting sold a lot just like Michael Bay's crappy Transformer movies. But look at the bright side. It's probably now easy for a book to get publish and brought by a lot of people. It's all about having a good addictive story line that is marketable and reaches its audience well. Grammar is never the issue, unless there is too much which makes the book completely unreadable.

    For example, Twilight is a best seller because the author knows what type of fantasy that girls like (the emotion of getting a fake handsome boyfriend full of wet dreams). Fifty Shades of Grey did the same thing for older women who like porn. Those books gave women love making experience. Harry Potter gave us a beloved character and a world we want to explore. And The Hunger Games gave us a strong female character in a similar world with issues that we can relate too.

    If you want your book to become a best seller, find your audience and decide what you want to give them.
     
    cutecat22 likes this.
  6. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    Any literary critic can do this as well. But they can go beyond this and point out other interesting things, which is why I value their opinions over those of casual readers. As an example, take Achebe's Things Fall Apart. Not many people know that Achebe wrote this book in response to Conrad's Heart of Darkness. This is an important thing to know because historical context is very important when reading and appreciating that book. Without knowing that, the reader can be left confused (as evidenced by some of the reviews on Amazon).

    In my humble opinion, a review should go beyond the usual "I could relate to the characters, therefore this book is good." My favorite reviews on Amazon are the in-depth reviews (which are usually also the "most helpful" reviews) because they tell me something interesting about the book. That's what makes me buy the book. Maybe I'm just in the minority here.
     
  7. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    If you are, I'm happily in that minority too.

    I think Achebe's book is a good example. I mean, it's pretty much the entry book to Post-Colonial theory, and the Colony writing back to the Imperialism of the centre (as Conrad's Heart of Darkness is on at least three levels, possibly more) but really, how many casual readers of books would really go out of their way to read Things Fall Apart if it wasn't recommended by people who see the merit in it 50 years after it's publication? He's not the 'in' thing anymore - unless he's had some sort of eternally cool cultural icon, and I'm the odd one out for not knowing about it.

    And even if it wasn't a text that was studied as Post-Colonial. Anyone who isn't moved by Okonkwo's suicide, seeing his entire world fall apart because of white European invasion is just made of different material to me.
     
  8. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    I don't pay any attention to reviews - and from what I've seen, most people don't. And frankly, one major reason I don't is because so often, reviewers don't get it. Books, movies, songs - the more these educated reviewers hate them, the more the public loves them. Logically, that means the reviewers have it wrong - people here seem to be saying just the opposite. I mean, there's this small group of people who have all this formal education, so we should listen to them instead of all these other people who don't have this formal education and who have "only" read hundreds and thousands of books. Sure, maybe they can tear a book down to the cadence of the sentences - so what? Most books are not written with intellectual dissection in mind. They are written to get a story out, an idea expressed, a philosophy described. You do not need a degree to understand them. If you do, it's probably badly written.
     
    Okon and cutecat22 like this.
  9. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    See, that doesn't interest me in the slightest. But then, it would be a pretty boring world if we were all the same!
     
  10. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    The literary critic could but more often, will not. Most books that are praised by critics are like films praised by film critics, they do badly or ok, but the ones that the critics bomb, do really well.

    We all like a good underdog story, maybe that's the subconscious in all of us rooting for the underdog by going for the books/films/whatever that we 'shouldn't' like ...
     
  11. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    I can think of a number of examples where this simply isn't the case. Murakami novels, the films of Alfred Hitchcock, Inception, Lord of the Rings films,

    Sure, and you don't need a degree to understand astrophysics? Science is as much an art as literature when you know a thing or two about it.

    This is quite ridiculous, and to be honest shows a lack of knowledge about literary theory. You never quite understand a novel, and there is always another level waiting to be unlocked if it matters that much.

    If you just want a simple story then fine, but just because you are not interested in the intellectual discussion doesn't mean it isn't there.

    You aren't interested in a beautiful and powerful story of Western brutality? Your loss.
     
  12. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    Nope.

    Just like, I suspect, you are not interested in the struggle of an outwardly powerful man to understand and control his sexual desires which he hides inwardly.
     
  13. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Actually that sounds pretty good. What is it?
     
  14. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    I was going to use a similar example as Lemex's astrophysics example. I've read a good number of books on physics and enjoy watching shows like Cosmos. If someone asks me and Stephen Hawking to settle a controversial issue in physics that no one can agree on, I don't think anyone's going to argue that my opinion is just as valid as Hawking's. I only read science stuff for fun, whereas he regularly publishes papers at the academic level. I understand that art isn't 100% the same as science, but I just can't agree that everyone's opinions are equally valid. And that's why I think best seller lists are crap.
     
  15. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    If I told you, you wouldn't believe me.

    The Fifty Shades Of Grey Trilogy!
     
  16. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Just because it's not well written doesn't mean it can't be read for enjoyment, interest, or studied as art. I'll quite happily defend Twilight as worth reading if you want to learn about Mormonism. It's more focused, and better than another YA series I can think of.

    *cough*Harry Potter*cough*

    It's the Dunning-Kruger effect. I remember someone saying that people over analyse books, and the example they gave was 'They sky was blue - what does it mean!?!?' something like that. Yeah, as if that's actually literary criticism in a nutshell. ¬.¬
     
  17. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    *rolls eyes*

    OK, OK, I get your point but to me, that's essentially what FSOG is all about. Behind what everyone thinks of as 'bad writing' is essentially a good story about why one man has certain desires, how he fulfils those desires and then learns that what he thought was the only way to control them, was actually not.

    I've read all the HP books, but (sorry JK) I have to admit I lost interest by book four. Which happened with the films too.

    Twilight? watched all the films, the last one really bored me apart from a 15 minute sequence which had my heart in my mouth. Thought the last book was way, way better.

    Could not get into Hunger Games books at all but my 12 year old son devoured all three in as many weeks.
     
  18. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    I know a lecturer at my old university who teaches Twilight and Buffy the Vampire Slayer as examples of a Modern Gothic movement. Here's the thing, academia is not about being all artsy and pretentious, and marveling about how jolly clever Dante was. It's about studying culture.

    I would actually be very interested to see Queer Theory applied to Fifty Shades of Grey and see if it comes out with anything interesting. I know Queer theory has suggested Voldemort might have had homosexual tendencies, and an act to cover this contributed to his murders.

    People think that doing this means is that Voldemort being potentially gay is the ONLY reason why he committed, but really, it's just one approach of many that can be applied, and has been applied to Harry Potter. Cultural Materialist theory got there first, though, as it usually does.
     
  19. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    2,780
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Location:
    England
    I never would have thought that. At all!

    I don't think the author would have, either but yes, it is an interesting thought now you mention it.
     
  20. jonahmann

    jonahmann Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2014
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    44
    Location:
    Australia
    Mr PhD is an oxymoron.

    Economists actually agree on most points.

    Nightmare on Elm Street 2 is considered to be a work of queer fiction as though it were Top Gun.

    Because life imitates art.

    I don't agree. I think it's for women who don't like porn and can't get their jollies that way.
     
  21. Okon

    Okon Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    388
    When people try to interpret literature, they often already have a theory or form one quickly. After that, it seems to be bias-chasing.

    There are a lot of crappy books out there, especially on the bestseller lists, but I'm not going to seek out the higher-educated for a "better" opinion. I'd rather look to people who share my interests, and find their blogs or list of reviews and preferred books. I hunt for music the same way.
     
  22. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    Wow. You have to have a degree to understand literature because it's just chock full of all these formulas and equations and other complexities like astrophysics! And I have nothing against literary/intellectual discussions of books - but I say again, it is not necessary in order to understand and enjoy literature, and not being interested in them does not make one somehow a lesser person, or a less intelligent reader.

    You know, for someone who accused me of getting 'nasty' earlier, you're pretty good at it yourself. I just can't imagine how art has managed to flourish over the centuries with all these simpletons running around, reading books they can't possibly appreciate. So glad there are these Higher Personages who can educate us poor morons as to what we should be reading.
     
  23. MilesTro

    MilesTro Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes Received:
    101
    Location:
    Springfield
    But it is as bad as Twilight.
     
  24. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Just as it's not necessary to have a degree in astrophysics to understand that stars are just constantly exploding balls of nuclear fission that are just really really far away. You will likely even see the beauty in the night's sky and appreciate the images from the Hubble telescope of galaxies still in formation, and marvel at the fact that the light from the stars you see has traveled distances the human mind just isn't built to work with, and what you see is an image now millions of years old.

    But, I'm willing to bet someone with a degree in astrophysics will feel and appreciate a sight of a clear night sky more, because he knows how we found out how to calculate the distances from us to stars. It's not my failing as an amateur-astronomer, it's just how life is. Some people know more about a subject than others. It doesn't matter that an amateur astronomer has looked up at the stars more than a professional astronomer, what matters is what they see.

    You keep mentioning intelligence and stupidity. What gives?

    I didn't mean to seem nasty. And to be honest, I wasn't. You don't understand literary theory, that much is clear to anyone coolly looking at this exchange. Yet you are constantly attacking people who do as pretentious elitists. Somethings gotta give - as that old song goes.

    When I said 'You never understand a novel' - that's 'you' in the sense of everyone. We have been studying Homer's epics for a long, long time now, and yet no one is going to pack up shop and go home, all the riddles being unraveled now - of course not. There are still things to learn, that's why he's still studied. You don't study things that are dead.

    If you don't want some grand reference. As I said before, Buffy and Twilight are studied at my old university as examples of Modern Gothic. Universities are not about being oh-so-clever, it's about studying culture. Again, you don't study things that are dead.

    Appeals to authority, and victimhood at the same time, will not really get you far. It's not even very interesting as comments. It does seem you feel personally victimized by comments that have any relation to criticism. As I said before, if you personally just want the story, great, if you want to mock and insult those of us that see more in literature, then - yeah, that's nasty. And I'm going to call you out on that with all the love in my heart.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014
  25. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    I'm sure there are people with advanced degrees who share your interests. I know people in academia who specialize in children's literature, and I know one person specializing in the fantasy genre. Academia isn't all about one specific genre (i.e., literary fiction). I'm not even sure how that stereotype came into existence.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice