I am purposefully not putting this in the debate sub-forum because the topic is not about whether this is good or bad, right or wrong. I don't care what people's individual prejudices are one way or the other. This thread is about the fact LGB&Ts have crossed the 50% threshold of acceptance in the US and there's no reason that number should go backward anymore than there's a reason separate but equal should ever come back. I can't believe the level of intolerance among the members of this forum. I guess I was under the false impression artists were more tolerant of 'different'. But no matter, because intolerance is losing as it should. It's only a matter of time before it's relegated to the backwaters of ... well I can't say what I want to because the thread is not in the debate room. University of Chicago: Americans move dramatically toward acceptance of homosexuality, survey finds HuffPo: Gay Orthodox Jews See growing Acceptance in Israel USA Today: USA'S SHIFTING ATTITUDES TOWARD GAY MEN AND LESBIANS Pew global research: The Global Divide on Homosexuality - Greater Acceptance in More Secular and Affluent Countries The WA Post report on the Pew poll: Acceptance of gays in society varies widely Gallup 2010: Americans' Acceptance of Gay Relations Crosses 50% Threshold - Increased acceptance by men driving the change The young are the ones who lead the way of social change. One can only wonder why the rest so often fail to see the wisdom of the young when it shines through.
I hope you're right GC but history shows progressive behaviour has a way of going into decline given the wrong stimulus.
I have noticed a few rather inappropriate comments (which I've reported) but you make it sound like we're a bunch of homophobes. I certainly hadn't seen that, but maybe I'm not looking in the right wrong threads. Um, sometimes it's the young who reap the benefits of those who came before, the ones who took the flak and had to do things quietly to get anything done at all. Just like women's rights didn't just suddenly happen because the young gals got involved...
Ginger, where's the proof regarding over 50% acceptance of transgenders? I don't see anything in your post that supports the T in your initial statement.
Ginger, I appreciate the intention under which I think this thread was originally inspired, but I don't feel the above quoted portion to be a fair representation of how it is here. I've been here since 2008 and I've seen the forum morph through many changes - some good, some not - which is only natural, but I've never felt myself under the specter of reproving eyes here because I'm gay. That there be a few vociferous individuals whose volume knob is turned up so high that it sounds like a crowd is only to be expected. It's just real life. But the hugely vast majority of members have never once shown even a hint of prejudice towards me for being openly gay. As a mod, I've had some shitty things said to me by members to whom I was showing the exit door, but strangely I've never had an ugly epithet regarding my gayness as one of those shitty things. Honestly, not once. There are members here whom I know to be men of faith (@Thomas Kitchen @losthawken, @Pheonix) who have never been anything but the very example of curtesy and kindness to me. I mention that only because under the American paradigm, the two things are usually assumed to be mutually exclusive. I think our forum actually serves to represent the upper end of the bell curve represented in the numbers you have given in your original post.
Personally, I find a large portion of genuine homophobia to be infuriatingly dim-witted. By this I refer to straight men who genuinely dislike homosexual men. I like to believe that most of the forum members are smart enough to want to live in a world where we can all respect each other regardless of race, sex, sexual preferences, religious beliefs and so on. I’m not racist either. But at least I can sort of see how racism could seem attractive (to an idiot): “If our group sticks together, we’ll be stronger than that other group.” That sort of thing. But what makes straight men that dislike homosexual men so utterly ridiculous is the following: The more gay men, the more available women. Isn’t it completely, utterly, blindingly obvious that this is not something to be discouraged from the straight male perspective? How could anybody not see that a return to the Victorian days in which gay men felt forced to have wives in order to fit in would be bad for everybody? Homophobia is as pointless an attitude as vandalism is a crime. I mean, how many gay men are there in the world? 100 million or something? Well, if 100 million extra well-dressed men are prepared to opt out of the heterosexual market, that’s good for straight men, isn’t it? How could anyone not be able to understand this? Now that I’ve finished my rant, I’d like to reiterate that there are a host of other valid reasons to be tolerant to the entire LGBT community, but I can see how some people would miss them. I’d even like to specifically clarify that I have nothing against lesbians either (I mean, what’s the alternative? Force them to have sex with men?) I’m not suggesting that people should choose their beliefs based entirely on selfish reasons; I’m merely saying that even from a selfish point of view, a lot of the homophobia I see is bafflingly self-defeating as well as morally wrong.
What's even more glaring is the double standard some people have. Last night for example, me and some friends (male and female) were in this very discussion: "Lesbians are okay, gays are not." What's the difference? What makes two women okay, but not two men? I don't get it. I even challenged the group to answer me by bringing up an XXX site with a video of two women having sex. BOTH the men and the women claimed it was a turn on and perfectly acceptable. However, when I reversed the scenario to two guys, it was nasty and one girl even left the room claiming she felt sick to her stomach. So again I ask, what's with the double standard??? Nobody had an answer besides "that's nasty."
For some people, mere disagreement is automatically equated with hate or intolerance, no matter what the motivation or how it is presented. That's an underlying issue of the person drawing the equivalence, but there you have it. The great irony of this thread, of course, is that Ginger is perhaps the most intolerant person on these forums, and is definitely in the top three.
I wouldn't call the war over yet, though many decisive battles have certainly been won. There are many areas where casually derisive views of homosexuals is still the norm even though the crassest bigotry is mostly relegated to the remotest areas. Also, trans people have a lot further to go to reach where gays and lesbians are now. It is still very common for them to face the kind of brutalization you associate with homosexuals of an earlier era. That said, I do believe the upsurge we have seen in the anti-homosexuality movement around here is a desperate outward show of strength betraying its inner weakness; recognition of its long-term losing trend. Homosexuals had the strategic advantage, over other minority rights movements, of being represented everywhere in all demographics. It was very intelligent to highlight this with their "we are your brother, sister, friend, etc" strategy.
This reminds me of this: http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6846855/gay-men-will-marry-your-girlfriends
Well, that's great for the LGBT's. It's actually quite easy to tell the "point" of social acceptance even in 5 or so years.
I think the replies in this thread confirm what I said about intolerance among members of the forum. I didn't post the thread to defend the gay members of this community, I posted it because I read one to many comments insulting my personal friends and defending the insults with piety. People are welcome to their religious beliefs. But then why am I not just as welcome to my opinion that religion does not excuse the insults being made about my friends? Let's see, oh yeah, I didn't coat my comments with the hypocrisy of, 'I respect your religious beliefs but ...'. "You're a sinner going to hell, but God loves you." I don't respect that belief and to say then I somehow can separate that disrespect from the person who said it would be hypocritical. Religion was also used to claim interracial unions went against God. That belief is no longer a mainstream religious belief, at least not in this country. If shellfish are no longer an abomination, if supposedly there is some old covenant no longer in effect since there is a new covenant, then religious beliefs are not fixed in dogmatic stone. The polls and recent movement to give equal legal rights to LGBT individuals in the US is evidence my friends deserve to be accepted as the normal people they are. That Russia's new anti-gay laws were a reason for our President to send three LG emissaries to Sochi can't help but call up memories of Jesse Owens' Olympic victory over Hitler's Germans in 1936. Talk about trolls, if I have to read posts from forum members who have religious beliefs my friends are bad people, I see no reason I cannot post evidence their beliefs are going the way of religious beliefs about inferior blacks and interracial unions. People had to speak up, say it was wrong, before the claim it was OK to think interracial unions were wrong because the Bible had a story about the Tower of Babel was finally discarded by mainstream Christians. Lock the thread, move it to the debate sub-forum, I don't care. I will exercise my right to say my belief is that the people who call LGBTs sinners are the ones in the wrong here and claiming it is a religious belief doesn't excuse it.
Ginger, people call it a "troll post" not because of bigotry against gays but because you stereotyped all religious people, even though at least some must be and are pro gay-marriage. Thanks for this, though! Aren't I awesome? EDIT: I'm sorry if I sounded hypocritical, as we all know how I love to rant about my issues. (Say what it is and you win a cookie!)
Not all "religious" people are anti-gay. Buddhism, for example, is a major religion and here is a quote that shows we are not intolerant bigots simply because we are religious.
Ginger what you call hypocrisy is being judgmental of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity. That in itself is bigotry. No one, and I mean no one mentioned anything about hating anyone, and in fact said exactly the opposite, except for you. You were also the one that brought bigotry into the argument. You probably include me in your tirade, but as I've mentioned many times, even previous to this last debate, I'm not religious, but those that are have the right to their beliefs as long as they aren't hurting anyone. Want to know a secret? I've had a bi-sexual female roommate and a bi-sexual male roommate before. I'm not going to judge them, that's not my position to judge them.
I didn't stereotype ALL religious people. I said the religious excuse for bigotry needed to be called out just like the religious excuse against interracial unions needed to be called out in the 50s. Loving v Virginia How is this any different? If someone today were to say they don't have anything against blacks but their religious belief tells them interracial marriage is a sin, how would that be received by most people?
It seems that you are posting with a lot of hatred. In fact, in a previous thread, you did not refute being hateful. From personal experience, I know how heavy a sack of hate can get. Every day, waking up and putting another brick of hate in the bag and tossing it over your shoulder; eventually, that burden consumes you. What is a choice, however, is deciding to carry that sack. I believe you will find more beauty in life if you decide to not carry the burden of hate.
