I would suggest that we keep the discussion on passive aggressive behavior in general and everything revolving around it, regardless of whether some posts were intended as passive aggressive attacks on someone or not. We have given this thread a chance because there has been actual discussion on the subject in a general sense instead of just speculation regarding whether someone has a hidden agenda or not and what it might or might not be, but if it turns into a more personal issue between members, that might put the thread in jeopardy. I believe it would benefit everyone if we kept the thread in calm waters because it's a good topic. Thanks for your understanding.
I don't read ignored posts so I don't know what's being said, or who is saying it, but as the OP I would like to ask for respect and civilised behaviour. If you are here to attack someone, you are engaging in bullying which is against the rules of this forum. People here have every right to discuss topics of interest without the threat of drama and self-referential hostility. If you don't like this topic, please leave this thread and do not come back.
@Lewdog, it means that flaming isn't acceptable, but that the moderators are on it and the situation is being dealt with. We also believe that those who have participated in discussing the thread's subject in a civil and impersonal manner shouldn't be punished because of what might or might not be going on behind the scenes, but if you have more questions regarding the issue, you can always PM any member of the mod team and we'll assist you the best we can.
Been there, done that. When members that I or others haven't even talked to can jump into a thread and see what is obviously going on should be enough to tell you something. As has been pointed out before, the need for someone to keep pointing out they are ignoring posts by certain members, of which everyone and their brother knows can't be ignored, that is as antagonizing as everything else. Do I need to bring up the hypocrisy of this thread? The second point of passive aggressive behavior was just made. The passive aggressive person took on the image of the victim, when in fact they are the perpetrator. Really you guys are going to let this go on? I already told you how being a pedophile has nothing to do with passive aggressive behavior, and how that was just a dig to get under the skin of the people she is talking about, and well since being a pedophile is against the law...so that is libel. Is that what this forum wants to be known for?
I don't get what's going on here. Maybe I'm just blind but I've mostly been reading about the discussion on OCDs and hoarding. What's going on? Where are these sudden accusations coming from? And why is @Lewdog sounding so angry in the post right above me? O.O And what ignored posts? There're posts that the forum hides...?
@Mckk : I put a few members on ignore so I don't see any of their posts, so I was shocked when I read T.Trian's comment and realised what happened. What offends me the most about this unfounded hostility and deliberate derailment is lack of any regard for the ongoing discussion and all the personal stories that we all shared here. I'm sick of this thread usurpation to be honest, and it's not the first time either.
Thanks for the explanation re the ignored posts. I'm still not catching sight of any passive aggressive posts though - maybe I'm missing them, or maybe the mods deleted them. Either way... This is slightly off-topic but it's still therapy-related. What are your thoughts on art therapy? I read earlier that you said it's easy to misdiagnose and therefore give the wrong treatment, and that's especially true of therapists who specialised in only one type of treatment. So I'm kinda thinking of art therapy and if studying to specifically become one would mean one would be blind to other aspects/issues? And would an art therapist have to study all the things that've been discussed here - OCD, hoarding, passive aggressives etc - and deal with such people too?
I think we all have some passive aggressive tendencies. I mean, there're plenty of times my husband's responses are totally passive aggressive, but later when he's calmed down, I tell him about it and he apologises. Heck, sometimes I'm passive aggressive I'm sure. Normally I'm a very direct kinda gal, but have I ever said one thing and really meant another, intending for it to really hurt? Of course I have. Have I ever victimised myself even when it's clearly my fault, of course I have! (in fact, sometimes I tell my husband when I'm really angry, "Look I'm far too worked up to admit I'm wrong, you know I'm not gonna apologise right now." ) If anything, I think knowing about it is more important. If you know you have passive aggressive tendencies and admit that, you can fix it, and at least you can apologise for it afterwards.
Let me break it down for you then. The contest moderators cannot be ignored, otherwise they couldn't see submission. Claiming that you have ignored someone you can see would be very strange behavior then. Unless the goal was to tell the people you can see, that you are ignoring them. That would be a very passive aggressive thing to do.
@Mckk : Art therapy is a wonderful tool, but it's an adjunct, not a treatment. Art therapists I worked with are working closely with Occupational Therapy. It helps patients to open up and express themselves. It doesn't diagnose or treat psychiatric conditions. So if an art therapist works in Adult Acute psychiatry setting, they'll be seeing all inpatients who are interested, and the illnesses includes psychosis, bipolar, severe ocd, depression and basically anything an adult might have that may mandate a stay in the hospital. I've seen art therapy in many different psych settings, also some psychotherapists have education in it and they use it during therapy.Otherwise, it's an essential technique when working with children. @TheApprentice : You needn't worry. Most people have some degree of all or some 'psychiatric' behaviours. They can even have personality traits. It's only diagnostic when it's pervasive and it negatively affects your life or relationships. The key always is insight and degree of severity A typical personality disorder patient think their behaviour is flawless and perfect and they think the rest of the world is to blame for the problems in their life. This is why it is a disorder, because a person refuses to work on themselves, they don't accept that they have a problem.
I'm considering studying art psychotherapy you see. I've applied, not sure if I'll even get an interview yet, but I'm still wondering how suitable I might be for the profession. And I know zero about psychotherapy lol.
@jazzabel Thanks. I was kinda worried when reading that cause I am forgetful and a procrastinator, but im working on it and always do my best to treat others with respect.
@Mckk : That's great, I hope you get in! I think you'll be really good at it. I don't know much about art therapy training, I know only about psychiatry and psychology (my sister is just finishing her phD in clinical psychology so I know more than I ever wanted to know about that process, lol). But ordinary psychotherapy involves you going through a form of analysis, together with supervision, which is guidance and discussion of your patients. It can be a difficult process, but it's ultimately essential to future practice. Know yourself kind of thing. I don't know if it's the same for art therapists. @TheApprentice : No worries, medical students go through the same thing. You can imagine hypochondriasis spreading like bush fire every time another scary disease is introduced into the curriculum
Just leaving the words that I'm responding to. If you were providing a hoarder with art therapy, you would probably be what children of hoarders refer to as a "wonderful stranger"--people who know little about the hoarder's life, that the hoarder puts on a pedestal, praises to the skies, and solicits return attention and praise from, making up that attention and praise if it doesn't actually happen. And uses as an excuse for further hoarding, as in: "Ms. Smith said that she'd never seen anything quite like my macaroni-and-cheeto collage. You may call all of this junk, but she appreciates a creative point of view. Oh, by the way, a dozen gross of Kraft macaroni and cheese are coming tomorrow; you'll have to take off work so you can sign for them while I'm at my art class. Yes, I need them! I can't disappoint Ms. Smith!" If you got nervous about the hoarder's excited description of the pending macaroni delivery and suggested that perhaps not quite so many 'art supplies' are needed, you would lose your 'wonderful' hat.
Well, I'd hope the drawings she'd produce through art therapy would show her how destructive the hoarding behaviour is, and as a therapist (I'm not a therapist and don't even know what art therapy really does at this point) - but my intuition - would be then to discuss the picture with her and guide her to seeing things with perspective and in a wider context than simply herself. But yes, if someone doesn't want to be helped, they cannot be helped. My husband's mother sees - or at least used to see - a psychologist regularly. Every time the psychologist would actually begin to work on her problems, she changed psychologist. She just wants to complain and be affirmed in her suffering, really. She doesn't want to change. For me, again, my intuition would say that I would need to guide that woman into what changes she could actually make, through finding out what she has done through art. Maybe suggest for the next session that she should've thrown something out and *not* filled it up with something else. Or making a clear space somewhere in her house where there should be nothing, and then work on expanding that little clear space until it's the entire house? I have no idea what I'm talking about btw
Returning to the general topic of passive aggression, one thing that can be useful for a writer (and, really, a human being in the world) to be aware of is that the range of normal behavior can still include a fair bit of indirect communication. People who lean toward indirect communication may regard direct communicators as rude. People who lean toward direct communication may regard indirect communicators as passive aggressive and manipulative. For example, you're at a dinner party: Direct communicator: "Would you mind turning the heat up a little?" Indirect communicator: "Wow, winter has really arrived, hasn't it?" perhaps followed later by, "It's nice and cool in here for the cheese." You're offered a glass of wine: Direct communicator: "No, but I'd love a Coke or something like that." Indirect communciator: "No, thank you." In this situation, the host is supposed to quiz the indirect communicator until he comes up with something that they'll drink. You're given grapefruit juice at breakfast: Direct communicator: "Ooh, I've never managed grapefruit juice. Do you happen to have orange juice? Oh, that's fine, don't thaw any; I'm good with water." Indirect communicator: "Oh, my, graperuit juice is so healthy, isn't it?" in juuuuust the right tone to indicate that here, 'healthy' is not a positive thing. In the above situation, if the indirect communicator (IC) were instead the person to say, "don't thaw any", the host would also have to guess whether they were serious or whether they'd be offended if taken at their word. Now, I'm being unfair here, because I'm not an indirect communicator, so I'm probably making them more passive aggressive than they really are. But direct or indirect communication is, IMO, something interesting to pay attention to. Edited to add: I guess the difference between an indirect communicator and a true passive aggressive person is that the indirect communicator really does want to communicate, and really does want the interaction to go smoothly.
That would make perfect sense if the hoarder actually wanted to be helped--and it might work beautifully for, for example, an adult child of a hoarder who internalized their parents' behaviors and rationalizations but really does feel distress at the state of the house. A "learned hoarder", as I'd call it, rather than a "real hoarder".
@ChickenFreak - I think the important thing would be how it's said. The indirect communicator, while they may simply say "No thanks" without further info, might not take any offense at being offered water instead without the host actually asking if it's okay. Sometimes the indirect communicator realises that people have missed the hint, and they berate themselves for not being more direct and suffering for it, but they don't fault the person for missing the hint. That, for me, is an important difference. Whether they cast any blame on the other person, and whether they try to guilt-trip the other person. Personally I'm a direct communicator, but I've never done what you stated in your example with the wine. I've always accepted wine without question at formal settings or at my in-law's house. I just then swap glasses with my husband when he's done with his I'd have my glass full of wine and then later ask for mineral water myself lol cus I do actually want a drink. And when the in-laws ask if I wanted my wine topped up, I always say no lol. Basically, I only refuse if the setting is casual enough for me to do so. Just manners, to some extent.
Are you implying though that a real hoarder can therefore never recover? And they will never want to be helped? That seems a little... prejudiced to me (although I know you speak from personal and bitter experience - but maybe while that gives you more insight than a lot of people have, it could also make the hoarder seem more irredeemable than they are to you?)
Really there are some people that can never be healed, instead they just have to find a healthy alternative to their negative behavior. Take for example my friend and his wife are 'cutters.' I've told him that he really needs to find something that he and his wife can do like exercise, a hobby, or something healthy to do whenever they get the feeling that they need to cut theirself. Cutting and pain makes your brain release endorphin which creates a euphoric feeling. It is the same chemical that is released from doing drugs like opiates. Well exercise and sex also help your body release endorphin, but since he already has 4 kids and one on the way, they should never have sex again! So the best thing for him would be exercise. It all depends on what type of problem a person has.
I agree that some can never recover, maybe, although we can never who that particular person is, so it's better to work on the premise that they might/could recover - esp if you're the therapist. I think you need that if you wanna stay sane in your job lol. Anyway my post was really addressing the implication that ALL hoarders can never recover or want to be helped. But maybe Chicken didn't mean that. Personally I don't think 2 cutters should marry. That sounds like it's just compounding the problem!
