to be fair we have very occasionally barred people for not giving crit, but only if they really take the P*ss... like one guy had 47 peices posted for crit over ten years, but he'd only given a few one liners that said essentially 'i liked this' in response. i tend to think its like a pot luck supper... noone insists you're the best cook in the world but if you want to participate you have to bring something for the comunity within the best of your ability. If you turn up empty handed , eat all the food then throw up in the punch bowl and insult the host you're likely to be shown the door
...so long as they critique. Otherwise, yes, they are barred from participation in the workshop. You can agree with this rule or disagree with this rule, which is why we're here, but it is a rule. Agreed, but eating all the food then throwing up in the punch bowl and insulting the host are a bunch of violations that most people are not going to engage in if they just want to join the party and find out if they're interested in coming again.
If someone is interested in posting, why not test the waters in the Showcase? I don't believe there is a critique bar there. Yet, posting to workshop with an expectation of others' time and attention without offering something in return is a taker's mindset, which almost always results in the give an inch they take a mile axiom. Poor behaviour is brushed off because someone is new. They get attention and sympathy because they are new. And because it's the internet, more people are inclined to give into more substandard behaviour than they generally would in public. Any problems are because of the dog, not its owner...Wrong, the dog is a victim of its owner's choices, behaviours, and impulses. Their impulse is not to do anything with the dog, just leave it abandoned in the backyard until they see a social media post featuring their breed of dog. Heck, he can make his dog do that. Come on Dog, we're going to the park. Dog goes nuts because he's gleeful to be free of the backyard, but he doesn't know his own strength or that not everyone is his friend. He's a dog without any training or social skills and he freaks out. Accountability is part of being part of a community. Can't bring a dish to potluck, bring plates, cups, utensils, maybe volunteer to help with set up or knock down. Offer to help do dishes, or bring a plate to an elder who uses a walking aid. There are a multitude of ways to get involved in things. Bring a game, play with the kids, hold the baby so Mom can eat. Flipside is Johnny wants to jump off the high dive, a platform three stories high, at the rec center. Johnny doesn't know how to swim, and his mom insists that Johnny should be allowed to jump off the high dive, after all, isn't that what life guards are for? Life guard tells Johnny and his mother no because Johnny will injure himself and potentially drown if he tries. He cannot jump off the high dive. Why not try a cannon ball into the shallow end of the pool? Have you actually tried to see how you like jumping into water that goes over your head? The cogs start turning in Johnny's head, he never thought of that... Basic safeguards are not put in place as an insult to people. They are put in place because of what other people have proven willing to do that has resulted in disaster.
The Showcase exists for a different purpose. There's no bar on critiques there, but it's not supposed to be for people seeking critique. It's for finished works that the author wants to, as it title implies, showcase. I have found that most people who receive critiques take it well, as long as it's fair, not someone just deliberately being a dick. There are at least a couple of posters who were, and one - exweedfarmer - I recall, who revelled in and boasted about doing it.
Why is an expectation of the most basic reciprocity such a deterrent? People want feedback, but are unwilling to post if they have to offer one. It is their loss because they want other people's skill sets and time for free. That is entitlement and it benefits no one. The rule is in place to maintain a balance of give and take and circumnavigate the taker's culture.
Unless it brings in new members who end up participating actively and happily in the forum, including, hopefully, the workshop.
It's like asking someone to sing in public for the first time. Of course you're going to be nervous if you think everyone else is better than you and will laugh or get annoyed at you.
Other forums have removed guidelines like this in the past and have ended up alienating long term active members when the new (sought after) members flooded forums, offered nothing in return, and then proceeded to behaved poorly toward other members of the community. It destroyed the forums that up until then functioned pretty well. Ease back on the guideline from 2:1 to 1:1, certainly, but to remove it entirely is extreme naivety. Idealistic, maybe, but ill advised.
To be clear, no matter what we decide, this isn't going to turn into an unmitigated cesspool. Writers who want praise instead of constructive feedback have no business being writers, so that will all take care of itself. Shit-crits will also be dealt with accordingly. And by that, I mean the three sentence critiques where one sentence essentially says "I liked it" and another offers some form of "Good Job" or "I want to read more." We all know what those look like and they won't pass the muster. As for the reasons why people critique or don't or what they like to critique or don't, that's largely irrelevant. People are going to do (or not do) what they're going to do on this forum just like in real life. There isn't much we can do to fix that other than to offer suggestions, lead by example, and encourage improvement. I expect our vets and active participants--the lifeblood of this community--to aid the mods in fostering that type of culture. There are going to be whiners and abusers like everywhere else in life, but that's the price of doing business. As for piecemeal critique issues, where people might not be interested in SPAG or whatever, that's kind of tough-noogies. When you offer a piece of art to the world, you offer the whole thing with no strings attached. There's nothing wrong with saying something like "this is a very rough draft so I'm not terribly interested in the grammar," but if someone offers up that advice, accept it with gratitude. I guess my larger point here is that nobody should worry about what might happen. Worry about what has actually happened if it actually happens. I'm very confident that the community has the infrastructure and knowhow to keep things on the rails. The mods play a small role in that compared to the veterans. So long as everyone is on the same page, I predict Great Success!
Society is a mosaic, the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything in-between. I've been on writing forums since dial up was a thing, and this is one of the better and most enduring forums I've been on. It is because of places like this that I've grown up as a writer and developed realistic expectations. For that I will always be grateful. A big part of that is because forums have certain guidelines in place for the health of the community. Here it is the 2:1 rule. Another forum I know, you have to have ten valid posts in order to access the workshop areas at all. The community there has learned to skim the showcase areas and largely ignore writers whose first post is a thread directly to the creative boards. It is a key tell of a validation seeker. The warning labels on things might seem stupid and we laugh at them, but sadly, they are there for a reason. Somebody at some point in time did something that was seemingly incomprehensible to just about everybody else. Having what amounts to an Even Steven requirement is fair and very reasonable to everyone. Some one doesn't like it, then that is their choice. They want to see the movie in the theatre, but get mad when the theatre charges admission for the use of their facilities.
New members could not view the WS, let alone post in it. This was also to offer another level of privacy to posted work. I don't know if that is still the case.
Yes, it is still the case. And by coincidence, someone started a thread about workshop crits today, entitled "Refusing to Critique" https://www.writingforums.com/threads/refusing-to-critique.210367/
I'd forgotten about the privacy issue entirely. I've been advocating a more or less self-policing free-for-all so far as the critiques go, but now I wonder if no valid posts before entering into the workshop could affect the whole first rights thing. I'm probably just being paranoid here, but it would make it a hell of a lot easier for a magazine editor to find a piece that was submitted to their publication. Or is that already the case? Can someone currently start a membership and peruse the workshop immediately?
Yes but the first rights thing is probably okay because you need a password probably not saying definitely because legal things
Yeah, you definitely can. Look how many people join, immediately post a story excerpt to the Workshop, and get it locked. Frequently it's their only post. Plus I seem to remember the first thing I did when I joined was read one of Naomasa's stories (it was Siren), and I believe my first comment was under that.
Yeah, you were drunk when you read that. Went straight for the sexy story, huh? I seem to remember when I joined, you had to be a member for 2 weeks and make 20 posts before you could post in the Workshop. It worked on me, when I found I couldn't post there, I went looking for the rules - which I should have done first, to be fair, but I can imagine most people wouldn't.
One magazine told me that wasn't a problem as it wasn't visible to the public as a whole, but I imagine policy varies from market to market.
It used to be 2 weeks and 20 posts plus 2 for 1 to post crit, but people have always been able to see the workshop straight away they create an account... we took the time limit off posting a while ago
