Questions about plagiarism and copyright

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by blubttrfl, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. SashaMerideth

    SashaMerideth Banned

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    Sticky ground there, Fair Use rights are being trampled in the USA. Fair Use is now an affirmative defense in a lawsuit, rather than a bar to filing the lawsuit in the first place.

    If you can mimic other's style then it becomes satire, but if you use their works, you then run into copyright violations if you're not operating under Fair Use.. but that still won't stop the origional authors or representatives suing you.
     
  2. sereda008

    sereda008 Member

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    I believe there will be no issues if the people you are going to write about agree.
     
  3. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    'fair use' does not apply to fiction, or anything else of a commercial nature... one should be familiar with the rules governing this exception, before referring to it in advising others:

    http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

    titles and author's names can be used freely in fiction... excerpts from the works cannot, if they're still under copyright... see for yourself what can and cannot be done:
    http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

    however, if you malign the work or the author, said author may sue your pants off...
     
  4. zilly

    zilly New Member

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    In my novel, one of the characters sings Every Rose Has Its Thorn like it's her job.

    A lot of the times I'll say things like:

    Singing her favorite tune...
    Humming her self-proclaimed theme song...

    But, sometimes I like to put words that she actually says. There are about four times in the novel that she says lines from the song and the reason I chose to use lines is because they actually apply to the situation. In each situation, though, the quote is a line or less from the song.

    So, at one point, she says:

    Instead of making love, we both made our separate ways.

    At another point, she says:

    Every cowboy sings a sad, sad song.

    Am I allowed to do this without having rights to the song. I know that you don't have to have the rights to make short references and excerpts, but I don't know exactly what that is.

    Thanks,
     
  5. Mallory

    Mallory Contributor Contributor

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    If you quote the song, you have to get legal permission.
     
  6. im6661999

    im6661999 New Member

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    ======================

    thank you all for your responses...

    can i, for example, use a series of books such as tom clancy fictions and write a fiction story about the books/stories? say if i were to spin a story about some controversy that was embedded in the books written by tom clancy. would that fall under 'fair use' or would that be a problem?

    or if used a non-fiction series such as books about astronomy and spun a story about controversy/major secret hidden in the books, etc. etc.?
     
  7. zilly

    zilly New Member

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    Interesting. I found a Yahoo answers article just now that seems to say the same thing. It says that as long as the lyrics are distinguishable, permission is necessary.

    That's interesting considering that you're allowed to write something like:

    She sang Every Rose Has Its Thorn.

    The title in and of itself is recognizable and is longer than many parts that I could quote.

    This is kind of depressing. The character is based on one of my real friends that sings the song constantly. And, I know that I'll never be able to get the rights =[
     
  8. Mallory

    Mallory Contributor Contributor

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    You could make up a fictional song by a fictional singer/band that still conveys the same meaning of "Every Rose Has its Thorn."
     
  9. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    My understanding is that titles are not protected.
     
  10. flanneryohello

    flanneryohello New Member

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    Personally I would stay away from using real-life books and authors in this way. It's easy enough to make up a fictional book/author whose work contained some kind of controversy/secret, and that way you can say whatever you want about the book/author without worrying about being sued.
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Not sure what you're getting at here. Fair Use and its precursors have always been a defense to allegations of copyright infringement. It can't be used to prevent a suit in the first place. The determination of Fair Use is fact-specific and is made in Court (assuming the plaintiff makes a prima facie case of infringement).
     
  12. FrankABlissett

    FrankABlissett Active Member

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    The question you (or, more likely the lawyers and civil court system) will be asked is "how likely are people to assume the story was approved by Tom Clancy et al?"

    How possible is it that people will think something like "You know that new Tom Clancy spin off, isn't it great that he's letting other writers have a crack at his stories. Well, I read it and trust me - is rocks/sucks."

    Basically, you're looking at writing fac-fiction, at least from the description you gave. Nothing wrong with that, and sometimes the fan-fic actually rises above the quality and popularity of the original. It's a big legal hornet's nest though, and is best tackled by an attorney on a case by case basis.

    Even if there were IP lawyers lurking here, they wouldn't be able to give you a solid verdict without seeing the final product.

    My advice is, simply, to write it. If you become fortunate enough to finish it and attract a publishing house, they will advise you. They will say either:
    "No problem here." OR
    "Fortunately, it's good enough quality that I think we can make a deal with Tom Clancy." OR
    "It's solidly written and a fun read. If you and our editor get together and change things just a little so there's less confusion with Tom Clancy, we'll go ahead and publish it."

    -Frank
     
  13. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    titles are not covered by copyright, but the lyrics are... and since there is no specific amount of words noted in the section of the law relating to needing the copyright owner's permission to use copyrighted work, to be on the safe side, you should not use any at all, imo...

    check the info on this at the source: www.copyright.gov

    and if still unsure, consult your own literary attorney for advice, not just nice, wanting-to-be-helpful members of writing sites...

    love and hugs, maia
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    You may be able to quote a very small portion of a song's lyrics and call it Fair Use, but it is tricky. Even a small portion of the work can be a problem in some cases, and with a song, even a couple lines can be a decent-sized portion of the work. So it's a risk.

    What you have to ask yourself, in my view, is whether you can afford to defend a copyright infringement suit if the song owner sues you, even if you are right (because even if it is fair use, the lawsuit is going to cost you a lot - Copyright litigation can run from $100K to upwards of $400K go to all the way through trial).
     
  15. Pook

    Pook New Member

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    I think its ridculous that people can own words and dictate usage.

    Copying someones song verbatim for personal finacial gain is one thing, a few words in 'tribute' is another.

    You said you knew that you would not get permission, try at least and then see what your options are.
     
  16. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    it has nothing to do with 'fair use'!... read what i posted above about that... and i would strongly advise you to not do what you propose, since clancy can sue you till the cows come home and end up with all you'll ever own, if he wins, which he well could... if you want to go ahead anyway, at least consult a literary attorney and find out all the various versions of hot water you can find yourself in if you do it...

    if those books are still in copyright, or the author's surviving family members might sue for one reason or another, you may also wish you hadn't... again, this is an issue on which you should be consulting an attorney, not other writers...
     
  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Well...if you write a novel and claim ownership (copyright), then you own words to some extent don't you?
     
  18. Pook

    Pook New Member

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    Hollywood charge for you to view an image and charge for you to own the image to replay the image, its bonkers!
     
  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    It does get a bit much sometimes, but then you don't have to view the Hollywood images if you don't want to. ;)
     
  20. Newfable

    Newfable New Member

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    Companies, including authors, don't mind small "commericals" in work (like meeting at a Starbucks, ordering a Coke, listening to an iPod, or doing homework on a Dell). Don't worry about those; books, movies, and the like can be lumped in there as well.

    However, you'll want to have a strong grasp of fair use laws and copyright when an entire work is going to revolve around something, either creative or corporate, that you can't legally call yours. For the most part, it's alright, but again, you'll need to learn the laws before you go ahead and get it published (I don't know the laws well myself). Of course, most publishers and editors will know how to handle such situations, and would either advise you, or flat out reject the work.
     
  21. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    you don't seem to understand what 'fair use' means... check it out here:

    http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

    as you can see from the excerpt below, it does not apply to fiction of any kind [which includes screenplays]...

     
  22. MetalRenard

    MetalRenard New Member

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    Not really. For starters, your line of thought is wrong, they do not own the words, they own the sentence. Secondly they are not dictating usage, just asking people to recognise their work. In song writing, lyrics are (if you work on them) very very carefully selected. Like in a poem, every single syllable and sound is important to the overall impression. I write songs myself and I do not want people to steal my ideas.

    I also believe that if you really want permission you should, before giving up, ask the person who wrote them! Often they won't refuse (personal experience). You are in trouble if the song is owned by a record label though (Sony sucks for things like that).
     
  23. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    again, 'fair use' has NOTHING to do with FICTION...

    http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
     
  24. jacktheknife

    jacktheknife New Member

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    Fellow writing enthusiasts,


    I Googled, the title to my book after ten years working on it and found it was being used by some Jesus movie. I was very distraught. I couldn't think of another title to save my life, what? God spoke to me with a beautiful vision and I killed five bad cops with my keyboard? I have grieved over my lost title for a year, till this afternoon. Visions and Miracles is the title to my book and no other will do. Anything else is too long, not to the point, shallow.
    This was a year ago.

    I Goggled the title again this afternoon and I had not looked hard enough. There is not only one movie entitled Visions and Miracles, there are endless books, endless movies, no end to all the uses, and variations of the Visions and Miracles title.

    I was reading today and saw quite by accident that titles are not copyrighted. So the title to my book is back on. I am so happy and relieved. The only problem is the unlimited other uses of my title. It may make it hard to find, and lost in the Visions and Miracles crowd.

    I barely survived being murdered four times in the last 10 years and I'm getting tired of it. I was even reported dead by the policeman who was called out the next morning to the site of my motorcycle wreck, which was not an accident by the way. That was 2001 and since then I have been almost shot twice and have had my already once crushed spine crushed again.

    In 2001 I was in a coma for five weeks and the Hospital for five months. When I was unconscious God spoke to me with what was a beautiful vision. It was not a dream, as my Doctor, after I woke up and told him about the vision said: People don't dream while in a coma".
    So it wasn't a dream after all it was real. God said...{Wait for the book y'all}


    The second time I sensed the trap, and refused to turn my right side towards the van behind me and go for my glove box for my insurance card the cops said I didn't have. Two cars and a big van pulled me over for weaving. After being told that I was going to jail for no insurance by a short, fat rookie with a strange sneer and a big smile. I stood without handcuffs leaning on my car for ten or fifteen minutes. No one was in the front seat of any of the vehicles, no one was outside the cars they were in the van looking down the barrel of a rifle at me waiting to murder me, I sensed it. I am a trapper and one can't trap a trapper.
    A bunch of fifth graders could have set a better trap, it was moronic. Second time I was deliberately assaulted and battered in jail by the jailers, they were waiting on me, jumped from behind I was for no reason. Resulting in further, severe, permanent, and inoperable spinal damage by the xxx and xxx police departments, to an already disabled former coma patient, with no criminal record, and ensuing cover up.
    The charges are: "Conspiracy to commit murder, and after three three failed murder attempts, conspiracy to destroy the evidence and hide everything, punishable by 99.5 years.
    I was told by the Sheriffs department and the Texas Rangers that five cops from two police departments have no defense, they are dead, unquote.

    The third time I was coming out of my Lawyers office a year later thirty miles north of where I live and the jail goon, was coming up the stairs. We passed and he turned and pulled his pistol and pointed at my back just as a Dallas police car drove by, spooking him and I made it home. It was my letter that had alerted the Sheriffs department and the Texas Rangers and District Attorney to be watching me and they told me about that a few weeks later, all of it on film.

    The vision is my beautiful visit with God who told my hounds, poisoned 12 years ago by the same guys who tried to kill me 12 years later, it broke my heart and it will never heal, are all alright now. "Jack, Cotton Joe, has been 3-4-5 different dogs by now, they are all fine, you are the only one still suffering and that It hurts them to see you still grieving for them so much, it has been 12 years"!
    "They would all be here with you if they could but they can't.
    God said: "Jack, you are missing your life. "Get you some hounds and go hunting".

    The miracle is the fact that I survived any of that.
    I was reported dead 2001:
    "No breath, no pulse, dead"!
    Then three murder attempts by two police departments.
    If that were not enough to be worth writing about I was the one who walked in the xxx police department and told the Sgt:
    "I want to speak to your highest ranking officer on duty, right now"!
    And when asked the reason I said: "Collusion, conspiracy, assault, attempted murder, false arrest, false imprisonment". I was lead back in the police department and here came the 5'8: 300 Lb brother in law of the rookie who arrested me.
    It gets better and better but that's enough for now.

    Visions and Miracles is the perfect title for my book, my memoir.
    "God spoke to me with a beautiful vision and I killed five bad cops with my keyboard is too long", see? But what do y'all think about a title so mixed up with hundred of other books and movies?
    I don't care, that's the title if it makes the book bomb.
    That's it, but I would appreciate feed back from others,
    especially you, Mr. Cogito sir.
    Visions and Miracles can not be improved upon, or can it?


    Thank you...


    Jack the Knife
     
  25. Mallory

    Mallory Contributor Contributor

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    There are books that share titles with movies and with other books. You'll be fine calling it "Visions and Miracles."
     

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