Questions about plagiarism and copyright

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by blubttrfl, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. mg357

    mg357 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    45
    I occasionally will use the first name of a celebrity for a character in one of my characters since so many celebrities have very common ordinary names.
     
  2. Somnus

    Somnus New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    If the person in question has an extremely recognizable name (this is likely a bad example, but 'Sarah Rose Hitler', even if she's a ballerina, will likely conjure a face as soon as you read it). Of course, Hitler wasn't really the ballerina type, but just with his very recognizable name (Adolf might have scored the same effect, but not with the same magnitude) you've drawn an association between Sara Rose Hitler and Adolf Hitler.
    Of course, as has been said before, there are two important points to remember: first of all, we are not a team of legal experts (well, I'm not, at least) and our advice/thoughts should not be taken as rock-solid truth. Secondly, you might proclaim it satire, but before the eyes of the law, it might not fit the definition of satire - and that opens you up to a hefty legal battle.
     
  3. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    It's not even just a case of being found wrong under the law. Even if you're found to be right, and your use is protected, if the case goes all the way through trial in order to reach that determination you're looking at six figures in legal fees.
     
  4. The Byzantine Bandit

    The Byzantine Bandit New Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    5
    So, according to this, "short phrases" can't be copyrighted. Does that include short phrases in a work protected by copyright? Like, say, a line from a poem in The Lord of the Rings? Thanks!
     
  5. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    no. it doesn't... 'short phrases' only refers to bits of writing that exist on their own, not excerpts from complete works that are protected by copyright...

    so, if i write:

    it can't be covered by copyright, since it's not part of a complete story/article/poem/whatever...
     
  6. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Yep - what [MENTION=373]mammamaia[/MENTION] said.

    A line from a poem in Lord of the Rings might be usable in some situations under Fair Use, but there is no bright-line rule for fair use. Instead, courts review a number of factors on a case-by-case basis to determine whether fair use applies. So you have to be cautious going down that path.
     
  7. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Does anyone know how this writing technique gets away with copyright issues? Or doesnt? I've tried looking for some article that addresses
    it but I can't find anything.
     
  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Could be subject to copyright. How large a portion are you keeping intact from any given work? Are there any ornamental features or graphic elements from the cut-up document that could be subject to copyright. Those are two things to think about. Easy enough to do this with public domain materials if you're worried about copyright.

    There are potential fair use arguments that could provide some protection as well.
     
  9. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Well, that's the thing I mean if you could cut words from an article phrases that sound so generic whose to know where you got them from. Four words could
    be clipped - Chaos in the Banana ( omiting republic ) and you could add it to a poem. But it would be harder to say take four words from Shakespeare
    - darling buds of May and not have everyone know where you got it from.
    I'm wondering if the idea would be that if the words cannot be concretely connected to a work they're up for grabs.
     
  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    If you're cutting them into pieces that small, or otherwise rearranging segments that small, and rearranging them into entirely different sentences, you're distancing yourself quite a bit from the original work and the Fair Use factors start to swing more strongly in your favor. You'd have to look at it on a case by case basis.

    Shakespeare is in the public domain, of course, so there's no copyright issue there. The safest thing to do would be to use only public domain works.

    I've seen some articles talking about preserving larger portions of the cut-up work. Like maybe a series of sentences from one work rearranged with a series of sentences from another. In general, when you're dealing with a fair use argument, the less you use of the original work the better off you are.
     
  11. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Defintely - I've just looked at the How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, got wild and got a life and the author seemed to use whole passages - in order!
    only rearranging a few things. It's like instead of being inspired by the book and ideas she just cut whole passages like a Mad Libs template
    and inserted a few different words.

    I definitely don't want to fall into that category but I'd like to do a kindof word collage without stepping on any toes.
     
  12. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,828
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    If your writing is lifted from someone else, it is a copyright violation regardless of how you rearrange or disguise it. Whether it can be enforced in a practical sense is another matter. This site does not condone attempts to "get away with" theft of intellectual property.

    A thief who isn't caught is still a thief. Don't do it.
     
  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    It all depends on what sized segments of the original work are preserved, in my view. If you cut a book up into individual words and wrote your own story by pasting those words as a collage, it's pretty clear to me that's not infringement. Same probably holds true for two-word portions. On the other hand, if you're leaving entire pages intact and somehow arranging them to produce an intelligible end product, you probably are infringing absent some kind of Fair Use defense. Who knows where a court would draw the line. Three word segments? Ten?
     
  14. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    I asked this question because I'm reading Woman's World
    by Graham Rawle. So far it's an great book and an amazing piece of art.
     
  15. Krishan

    Krishan Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2012
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    37
    Cory Doctorow's Pirate Cinema is more or less about this issue. It's a young adult book, but I found it very informative. Doctorow himself writes a lot about copyright and fair use.

    In short it seems that you run a risk by creating cut-up works, but (with literature at least) the risk is relatively small, and you're unlikely to be challenged. It seems logical that the more cut up a cut-up is, the safer you are with it.
     
  16. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Thanks for the tip on Cory Doctorow - I'll check him out.
     
  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    If you are interested in that sort of thing, you might also search YouTube for Doctorow's speeches on the subject. He does a nice job.
     
  18. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Thanks!
     
  19. Countess Word

    Countess Word New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi everyone! First time posting a thread here! :)

    I was wondering; if you write a fanfiction (and publish it on a fanfiction site) but change the names (and features) to your own characters when you want to publish the fanfiction as an original story, is it still considered plagiarism? I ask because I can't understand the whole thing surrounding the '50 Shades of Grey' trilogy! What I can understand is that the author wrote a twilight-fanfiction, but just changing the names to her own wasn't enough? It was still considered plagiarism? Or was it?

    Where does the line go between fanfiction, plagiarism and original fiction? If I wrote a fanfiction and put it up on the web, would I still be able to take quotes from the fanfiction and use as original quotes in my original story?

    Feel free to direct me to another thread if this already has been answered somewhere :)
     
  20. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    1,777
    Location:
    London
    There's no fixed line in law as to when something is in violation of copyright and when it's not. That gets decided on a case-by-case basis in a court of law.

    In the case you've outlined, from the sounds of it you'd have the same world, the same setting, and the same characters even if they did have different names. I find it hard to believe the original publishing house would just let that fly if you did get your story published.

    I've not read 50 Shades or Twilight so I don't want to comment too much on that one, but from what I gather while E L James kept the character relationships, the characters themselves and the setting were all different.
     
  21. Countess Word

    Countess Word New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Okay, thank you so much for your answer :)
     
  22. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    Fanfiction can be 'scrubbed' to make it a publishable work - but the scrubbing has to be pretty thorough. Just changing the character names and looks aren't anywhere near enough.
     
  23. TheDarkWriter

    TheDarkWriter Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    19
    I'm writing story that takes place in hell. The idea is that hell is a place where Sinners are trapped and bound in chains and tormented for all eternity. I worry it's too much like the 4th movie bleach movie where these beings called sinners humans that are also bound in chains and forced to suffer all eternity suffer. It's similar but there are severe differences like what hell looks like and the creatures that reside in hell tormenting the characters are also different. The plot is also completely different as well. Aside from some key similarities where the rules of hell are concerned it's very different story wise. The characters in the story aren't even like the ones in Bleach. Should I be worried?
     
  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    I can't be sure without reading both works, but it sounds as if both of you are using the classic definition of Hell, so it seems to me that you're drawing on common culture rather than plagiarizing.
     
    1 person likes this.
  25. Thomas Kitchen

    Thomas Kitchen Proofreader in the Making Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,248
    Likes Received:
    448
    Location:
    I'm Welsh - and proud!
    I agree with ChickenFreak. You're simply using the classical use of Hell, and that on its own is perfectly fine. And if your plot and story is different as well, it's nowhere near plagiarism. :)
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice