Questions about plagiarism and copyright

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by blubttrfl, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,630
    Likes Received:
    3,821
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    I wouldn't worry about it. I think the writing community and especially the internet has stirred up a lot of paranoia over plagiarism to the extent that we've killed the idea of borrowing ( especially from the better authors ) - afraid to even mimic styles, patterns of sentences or lift fresh verbs, a crime greater IMOHO than plagiarism ( as the plagiarist will get caught and kill their career, anyway. )
     
    jazzabel and Burlbird like this.
  2. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    The way I see it, whether you were consciously or subconsciously inspired by it, or if you came up with the idea yourself and then saw someone else who had the same idea after you'd written your own doesn't really matter.
    Pretty much every worthwhile idea has already been used, often more than once, so even when we think we're churning out truly original flashes of genius, chances are, someone's already done something similar sometime somewhere.
     
    jazzabel likes this.
  3. Ulramar

    Ulramar Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    243
    I'm pretty sure that The Hunger Games is an old folk tale modernized into a Young Adult book. That's inspiration.

    Copy/pasting a paragraph, plot, etc. is plagarism. If I added a Katniss Everdeen to my work and she was a bow slinging freedom fighter, that's plagarism. But if I have a bow slinging freedom fighter INSPIRED by Katniss, but has an entirely different name and background, it's fine. In my opinion.
     
    jazzabel likes this.
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,261
    Likes Received:
    13,082
    I think that if you can compare this paragraph and that paragraph, and see a relationship between more than one attribute, you're at risk of ethical plagiarism.

    I don't know if the following will communicate what I mean, but:

    "That paragraph taught me that what looks like a prosaic, even a humorous, metaphor can actually have a serious emotional impact," is inspiration.

    "Well, they're similar, but I replaced parent and child with jockey and horse, and arithmetic with learning to handle water jumps," is ethical plagiarism.

    One more:

    "That paragraph's structure, going from a large issue, to a smaller conclusion, to a very concrete example, is one that I've used many times since I saw it," is inspiration, but not quite as clearly plagiarism-free.

    Edited to add: I think it was clear, but just in case, by "ethical plagiarism" I mean that it's plagiarism in an ethical sense rather than necessarily in a legal sense. In other words, I'm not saying it's ethical.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
    jazzabel likes this.
  5. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    @Ulramar : I thought 'Hunger Games' pretty much ripped off a Japanese YA story called 'Battle Royale' or some such. It was certainly quite derivative from 'The Running Man' with Arnie Schwarzenegger, similar to the ethical plagiarism @ChickenFreak described.

    @ChickenFreak : I agree. It's difficult though, since so many are doing it and it isn't punishable by law if done right. I see things like that everywhere, a lot of trends are filled with ethical plagiarism of the original, highly successful trend setter. I read somewhere that to steal from one person is plagiarism, and to steal from many is originality. So I think artists have been grappling with this for a long time.
     
  6. Ulramar

    Ulramar Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    243
    Ah, I thought it was a folk take.
     
  7. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    @Ulramar : I think LOTR was extensively based on Norse and British (?Celtic) mythology. 'Hunger Games' was pretty much a rip off, as was 'Harry Potter', at least in the premise. Dan Brown ripped off another body of work from the early 80s. However, the differences were obviously enough since they haven't been found to have plagiarised, at least JK and Brown.
     
  8. CatFace

    CatFace Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2014
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    13
    That story about Quentin Rowan was very interesting, and bizarre. I feel as though it would lend itself to an off- beat screenplay where Rowan is portrayed as the comically tragic anti-hero(!) But getting back on point, unless, like Rowan, someone has deliberately lifted a sentence or paragraph word for word, it seems from people's responses here that plagiarism is a massive grey area, and it's hard to judge or agree on if someone else's work should or shouldn't be classed as plagiarism. This may sound a little airy fairy, but I think, if you yourself are the writer and would-be 'plagiarist', you would know deep down if what you are doing is copying or not. If it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't. You may even write something that someone else does not think bares anywhere near enough resemblance to another's work to be classed as plagiarism, but you yourself feel like you've been lazy and could have been more original, then that's the important factor.

    Now I come to think of it, I have been writing a short story recently which is very much centered around folklore, and I have included a character making a talisman out of the twigs from a rowan tree to ward off evil spirits. That's not my idea, that's something I read about and copied, and that's just one example. I may write about a water nymphs or goblins or witches later on... And hopefully by the time I have finished, it will be, on the whole, an original story. But just because I have 'borrowed' ideas from the realms of folklore, how is that really any different from seeing an idea, for example a description of a magical creature, that has been written about by one author in one book, and 'borrowing' that? Taking from folklore isn't really any less lazy or unoriginal, technically, but is not frowned upon as it would be if I took the idea from an individual.

    This isn't something I've actually ever given much thought to until now, actually. I am always getting inspiration from other people's work, just like all writers, and then write my own work without plagiarizing, but I have never stopped to properly think where the line actually is between the two. And what about accidental plagiarism? You may unconsciously rip off something that you saw or read so long ago, that you had forgotten the idea you have is actually someone else's. It sounds as though this happened to Helen Keller http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Frost_King. Many think it was a deliberate plagiarism, but I can imagine something like this could plausibly happen.
     
  9. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    @CatFace : Only after I located the paragraph that I realised inspired me, I started to feel uncomfortable. Initially I was really happy with it. I think this is unintentional, and isn't word for word, so this is something a lot of writers face, because we read so much, it's sometimes hard to distinguish between memory and inspiration.
     
  10. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    i strongly advise you to listen to your gut, jazz... if you felt uncomfortable, then it could be closer to plagiarism than you want to think it is...

    if the author whose work you rehashed, or any who are familiar with the original can recognize the source, then you could have crossed the line, or be so close to it as to be in trouble, legally... you really should consult a literary attorney to be on the safe side, or just be content with admiring the original and delete its 'homage' in your own work...
     
    jazzabel likes this.
  11. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    @mammamaia : I will definitely seek a few opinions, unless I change it even more than I have. The problem is, I did write it myself, and it does represent an important aspect of the character. I think this is why I'm at a loss, because I feel it's mine, but then... Etc. I'll probably end up re-writing it, as I do most things, but still, I almost feel like writing to the original author and asking is he ok with it or not. Not that he'd answer or anything, but still, I'd like to know how he feels about these things.

    I don't think it's plagiarism, but obviously, I don't want to get into trouble. And I certainly don't want to be one of those people who rip something off intentionally or not, and then swear they never read the original. I'd rather pay homage.
     
  12. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    294
    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    @CatFace I love just about everything in this letter by Mark Twain to Keller:
    www.afb.org/info/about-us/helen-keller/letters/mark-twain-samuel-l-clemens/letter-to-miss-keller-from-mark-twain-st-patrick's-day-1903/12345
     
  13. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    That's a great letter @Burlbird, thanks for sharing :)
     
  14. john11

    john11 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    3
    JK rowlimg's theft is legendary.

    I was reading that there are only so many plots and if you look carefully all books are regurgitation of previous works
     
    jazzabel likes this.
  15. CatFace

    CatFace Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2014
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    13
    That letter is wonderful @Burlbird

     
  16. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    if the opinions are not from literary attorneys, or judges who've tried IT cases, they won't help much, as no one else will be able to give you completely reliable info/advice...
     
  17. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    If I had a dollar for every time I saw you write this comment etc :D However, I am not necessarily interested in a legal opinion here.
     
  18. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    294
    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    I'm pretty sure there are people who scream "PLAGIARISM!!!" when facing a straightforward citation :)

    But what about good ol' pastiche? Nobody seems to bother with it lately - and I'm pretty sure 78.6% of people wouldn't recognize one even if it goes on and self-reference itself :D
     
    jazzabel likes this.
  19. ToeKneeBlack

    ToeKneeBlack Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2014
    Messages:
    383
    Likes Received:
    128
    Hi everyone,

    I'm new here and I hope I'm not treading on anyone's toes.

    My current project has the working title of "Stormbringer: Azurium", though I'm aware of a series of stories which are about a sword called the "Stormbringer" written between 1963 and 2001.

    In this project, the main protagonist goes by the name of "Stormbringer" in reference to the Deep Purple song of the same name, which appears to have no relation to the stories about the sword. She wears a lot of purple and has the ability to control the fundamental forces of the universe, but only by small amounts at first.

    What I'm asking is, am I treading on thin ice with the proposed title of the book and the name of my main character?
     
  20. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2013
    Messages:
    2,163
    Likes Received:
    1,374
    Location:
    A Place with no History
    I hardly doubt it would cause any issue.
    He doesn't own the word Stormbringer.

    I looked up a list of his books and only one of them is called Stormbringer. It's not an original name either as many others have used it for personal titles, names, names for weapons, etc.

    Nothing wrong with your title.
     
  21. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,911
    Likes Received:
    3,458
    Location:
    Boston
    ^ Agreed. You can use it.
     
  22. ToeKneeBlack

    ToeKneeBlack Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2014
    Messages:
    383
    Likes Received:
    128
    Thanks guys. I wasn't sure before and it's tricky to come up with a title sometimes.
     
  23. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,104
    Likes Received:
    9,793
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    From what I understand, titles aren't exactly exclusive copyright materials. For example, I've seen a movie, a videogame and a book all with the title Oblivion, but none of the makers are suing each other over it. I think so long as your plot isn't exactly like the plots of the other books, then you're OK.

    It's difficult, though, no doubt. :/ I always fret over title and names of my characters and races/planets, etc. You're not alone there. :D
     
  24. xanadu

    xanadu Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    802
    Likes Received:
    728
    Location:
    Cave of Ice
    Titles can't be copyrighted. No one has any claim to any specific title. But that doesn't mean a publisher won't change it if there's a chance it could be confused with/mistaken for other works.

    The title is part of marketing/branding. Publishers are pretty good at worrying about all that. I wouldn't sweat it.
     
    Link the Writer likes this.
  25. lostinwebspace

    lostinwebspace Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Canada
    Is there a site anyone can suggest that I can reference for legalities on writing? Things like what and how much is fair use, what is libel, when can I mention the name of a product or person and when such a mention might get me in trouble, what are my international rights, etc. I've found a few sites via Google, but I don't know how trustworthy they are. They could just be something dashed off by a person who doesn't know what he or she is talking about.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice