Rape Scene - how graphic is too graphic

You can post a graphic scene to the workshop, but it's highly recommended to add a warning (graphic content). If you want to post an example to this thread, I'd suggest using spoiler tags to hide it and add a warning.

The forum rules refer more to e.g. spamming or trolling the site with offensive material.

Fillers in general aren't a good thing, be they rape, murder, cooking a meal etc. I've heard some writers use rape as a device to develop their female characters. Maybe these type of characters appear in the books @peachalulu mentioned. When the author doesn't deal with the aftermath of rape (or any other traumatic event), it starts to feel like a cheap trick to elicit emotion from the reader.

@Moth, @Adhulari, @Inks for the most part I agree with what you guys wrote. If the writer decides to include some traumatic event, in this case rape, it shouldn't be used as a plot device. And the healing process is long. Your character will have changed afterwards, and if you feel like you can't discuss the trauma at length, it's best not to do it. Even if you decided not to write the crime itself and only the aftermath, your character's head will be filled with glimpses of it anyway. You can't -- and shouldn't -- hide the ugliness of rape because survivors can't hide from it either. In all likelihood, your character will continue to see it and relive it for years on end. Even in the real world, ten years later, you still sometimes remember it. Of course, some people deal with their trauma differently, so I'm not preaching the gospel truth here, but, in general, healing from it is a long, long process.

I don't think anyone who's never been raped, abused, beaten, survived war etc. can understand-understand the experience, but they can do their damnest to empathize with it. I tip my hat to writers who decide to discuss rape in their story and are set on taking the subject seriously.

Are they usually done badly? Or is this just your opinion because you, as a reader, don't like them? I've read plenty of books where rape has been handled well. I don't mean self-published stuff, or, um, more "frivolous" genre fic. Off the top of my head I can't think of a work of literary fiction that treated it flippantly or "did it badly" (although I'm sure there are those, too). I've even read YA where it's been done well.

The last thing I want is this awful thing that has happened to a lot of people to become some kind of boogey man that cannot (or is discouraged) be discussed or written about (and by saying this, I don't mean you did that @Moth, I felt you discouraged treating the subject flippantly, which I agree with).

For all you know (although apparently not in this thread's case), the person who wrote it has actually gone through it. For all you know, the scene they poured on the paper is their way of handling the trauma. No one's obligated to keep on reading, of course, I'm not trying to guilt-trip anyone into that. But, afaic, tackling difficult subjects in literature should be encouraged.

This pretty much summed up my thoughts as well (I removed the bits I disagree with). Not all literature is meant to entertain and be fun and as removed from reality as possible. Some stories force you to see the world in all its ugliness and encourage you to emphathize with people who've suffered. These stories should be told, even at the risk of some of the readers putting the book down.

 

I'm sorry but rape has nothing to do with love. Not a single thing. I am not sure if you are the author of that book or merely a reader, but it really gets my blood growing when C-class writers write about something they have not a single clue about and knock it off as a cheap painful "love affair". Hah.

It is about control, it is about humiliation, it is about fear. Be it a man who is raped or a woman, 9 / 10 times in real life it ruins their lives.


The below is one reason why I volunteer at a woman's shelter, because what happened to my classmate - a lovely girl, brilliant really, had she had a "chance" the world was literally her oyster - cut very deeply.

My classmate was in foster care, placed in a house where the husband had raped the two girls prior. Child services didn't do a dang thing for those girls despite both made the same claims - in fact the case worker was a bonafide liar claiming he went to the house [he hadn't stepped foot in that house since dropping any of those three girls off at the doorstep]. My classmate was so "in love" with her "loving" rapist - who if her claims are accurate started when she was 12 - that she committed suicide on her 16th birthday by throwing herself off the cliff and into the ocean because no one believed her [those comments about "love" are sarcasm by the way].

I know this because not only did I know the girl, my godfather was the criminal investigator called in to see what the heck happened. He tore those cowardly child service workers to pieces and exposed them as being nothing but sub-human liars with the moral conscience of a worm.

And her story is hardly something "new".


eeerr. Deep breathes.

 

I'm echoing those who have said rape scenes should be given the respect the subject matter requires, that they should be treated with the severity of real world violence.

I'd like to add that all too often I see acts of other kinds of violence treated flippantly. Severe beatings, physical and/or psychological torture, murder attempts, murders etc. are just shrugged off as mere minor inconveniences or even as something fun and cool while real-world violence, be it sexual or otherwise, is always ugly and often traumatizing.

Sure, some people can at least seemingly shrug off almost anything, but even in their case, because I've known people like that, they haven't erased the events but, rather, pushed them aside, often for years or even decades until eventually something snaps and all of a sudden the trauma hits them. Having witnessed that more than once, I'm inclined to believe survivors of any serious violence bear the scars forever even if they manage to make it look easy on the outside.

Based on those observations, I believe authors should treat all severe violence with a similar level of seriousness as rape. I believe authors should devote as much resources into researching what it's like to e.g. to survive a beating, years of psychological violence, physical torture etc. The information is out there, but, judging by most of the books and manuscripts I've read, it remains woefully neglected for the most part.

And I definitely oppose the idea that you should avoid writing about something like rape because it's a trope (although I must be reading the kinds of genres or books where it just doesn't happen much since I don't see enough rape scenes in the books I read to call it a tired trope) or because it's shocking and makes readers uncomfortable. If someone will put down my (and @KaTrian's) manuscript because it contains sexual violence, so be it. It's impossible to please everyone so we can't be bothered to even try. If you write your book with the mindset of trying not to offend anyone, I'm not sure how much artistic leeway that leaves the writer.

I have only experienced physical and psychological violence, not sexual violence, but I know several survivors of sexual violence very well (some of whom are family members), so I like to think I have some idea how damaging and devastating it can be and how very differently different women and girls deal with sexual violence and abuse.
With that in mind, I've also observed more than a few survivors of sexual violence seem to find solace in sharing their experiences (be it anonymously online, in a private conversation with a professional or a loved one, or by writing about it in fiction, be it poetry, prose, lyrics etc). Making a blanket statement against that behavior isn't really helpful to the survivors; it's difficult enough for many of them to open up at all, so I feel they don't need people telling them writers shouldn't write about rape because it's a trope.

Lastly, committing violence should also be treated seriously. I have never committed sexual violence and never will, but I have committed some justified physical violence in the form of defending myself/my loved ones from violence, and even when it's been justified, I do remember every incident and will remember them for the rest of my life. Personally, I feel zero guilt, but I do know many people who have committed similar acts of justified violence in the form of self-defense who do experience a lot of guilt over the matter even when they have nothing to feel guilty about.
One guy, a bouncer and professional self-defense instructor, once told us how he cried himself to sleep for weeks after a particularly serious incident even though his actions were justified morally and legally. I thought that confession spoke volumes of how hard violence can hit a person (no pun intended) even when they are the one committing it.

Perhaps people who work with violence, e.g. bouncers, people who end up in fights every week, often several times in one day, might not remember every incident of shoving and macho posturing of drunken punters, but at least civilians who don't commit violence with such regularity will likely remember every incident and many will be haunted by their acts.

One might assume there's a consensus that killing, even when justified, should be treated with similar severity as e.g. rape scenes, but I constantly see authors write stories where people kill each other at the drop of a hat without giving the acts a second thought. If you want to retain any semblance of realism in your story, that might fly if the characters are bonafide psychopaths but usually that's not the case.

My train of thought just derailed so that's that. Just my subjective observations, not the ultimate Truth.

 

I am unsure that has anything to do with Cocaine Chronicles and you would have to see it in it's full context to get the full story. You can't judge because you have not read Cocaine Chronicles yet

 

We are speaking of rape, and you respond that your character uses rape to:

That is the exact thing we are going on about - not showing the "respect" the concept of rape deserves. You or whomever writes this novel is knocking rape off as "tough love" which it is not.

If that is how the author of Cocaine Chronicles views rape - as "tough love" - it's either one of those dime a dozen eroticas or something similarly cheap and personally I wouldn't read it at all.

 

@lisabeth I do not mean to pick on you, but I had to pull myself away from the computer to stop myself from saying what I truly think about your point 2. Even as resilient and tough as I am - there is a reason I feel sick even when writing said scenes. You have no idea, do you?

@KaTrian - Not to disagree, but the fourth rule was: Actual rape is not permitted. This is not to be confused with fetish material where there is play acting at such things. Also... I have the actual rape lasting several thousand words instead of merely 2-3 paragraphs of "action" surrounded by blocks and blocks of context. Though there also tends be some other violence in the act which probably is also a no-no.

 

The Erotica section is for erotica. Rape is not erotica, ergo it's not allowed in the Erotica section.

In other areas of the Workshop you can post non-gratuitous rape scenes assuming you include content warnings and always place the portion pertaining to the rape within spoiler tags, but we reserve the right to treat each case on a case-by-case basis.

 

Ah, I stand corrected - though I am confident that my scenes would be unsuitable.

Going on the suggestion of another - I read Hubert Selby's Tralala scenes - the most offensive thing I found it is the disturbing lack of punctuation and spaces. Kidding... to an extent.

Spoiler: Plot spoilers

In its entirety, the vulgarity and obscenity leading to the pivotal gang rape (and possible death) of the character can only be properly appreciated in whole. While I do not find the mention of bodily fluids to be obscene, the way in which everything happens is a bit surreal. Selby is effective and crude - which aids in the portrayal, but Tralala consents to an act that is different from what she receives.

She treats her body as a resource that can be sold without apparent consequence - over and over again - Selby's line about it being "better than working" sums it up the character entirely. It is just pornographic. Or is it? There is no desire to titillate at all - sex without emotion, sex without bodies, men pay for their pleasure and she gets paid. Having been offered salvation, she rips it up and declares her best chance out as "shit". That final scene might stay with you, but it is what it is.

 

It's your book, if you want a rape scene, put a rape scene.
Monica Bellucci irreversible.
Rape scenes are complicated because they are repulsive and arousing at the same time. You are not supposed to be aroused by it because its morally wrong yet men and women both think about it, some people can't handle it and will close the book. But if you feel like it's in theme with the rest of your book and you want it there, put it there.

The only firm rule about writing is make it interesting.

 

Noone is asking anyone to read the book and none off you have seen it to make an informed judgement.......

 

Yes he did but The difference is i don't sugar coat it.......the guy is an arsehole and is suppose to be an arsehole
Secondly the book is called Cocaine Chronicles......i think the name speaks for it's self
It's about 80's Miami and druglords and killings ect and lots off other stuff not rainbows and unicorn farts so as i said before if you don't like it don't read it.

 

Some of the most infamous drug lords throughout history weren't arses, they were sharks [by that I mean people with a shark's diet - they smell blood / weakness, you're pretty much toast] poising as savvy businessmen and they often pulled it off quite successfully. If they were arses if the competition didn't get them then their "guys" got them and if that didn't happen someone would snitch to the cops faster than you could say sh*t.

As for the concept of rape, if the author of the book makes rape a scene of "love" then he/she's slapping every single rape victim in the face... no ands, ifs, or buts about it. Cause ask a real life rape victim if they felt loved during the event, and they'll probably kick you where it's not nice.

 

I don't think you can compare a rape scene with a normal sex scene. Sex is sex. Rape is violence. I don't think you can put a "=" between them or treat them the same way in a novel.

Completely agree. I also feel like depicting a rape scene in detail from the rapists POV would almost be like glorifying it. Then if it was from the victims POV it's unlikely that it would be that detailed and seen as from outside the character. I doubt it that anyone would be able to tell every detail of what happened and exactly what the rapist did, step by step.

Me too. To me as a reader, it would probably be enough of a horror to see the guy approaching the woman, and her discovering him, understanding what is going to happen. More than that and I would put the book down.

 

I don't believe the Character felt love during the event and it is made consistantly clear during the whole book that the character who did it was an arsehole and nuts to begin with. He is not suppose to be a good person and only out for himself and that's relected throughout the book.

 

@lisabeth - I have no faith in your ability to execute such a scene, just from your responses you have given.
Hold onto your innocence - please do not come into the den of monsters and darkness. Those who make light or tease out half-hearted notions of such things are simply playing with disembodied voices from their stage puppets. Trying to wield "impact" to overcompensate for other inadequacies.

 

And your personal opinion or attempt at trolling should count why ????

 

Not five hours ago you were saying it was in "love".

I don't mean to nitpick as the saying goes but there is absolutely not a single excuse on this earth for rape. Not one [just as there's little to excuse spousal or child abuse]. As mentioned throughout this postings rape is pretty much meant to hurt and it destroys lives.

I would think a victim raped by someone they are "in love with" or supposed to be "in love with" would suffer far worst than most [people raped by strangers / mere associates] because then the perception of love is warped.

Children molested by their parents for example, an often claim of such vile humans is that they "love" their children [there was a girl in the local paper just this afternoon who was raped since she was 8 maybe 10 and her father was calling her his "girlfriend"]. So let me ask you in that sense what would a child know of "love" - they'll be hard pressed to understand love in the same concept as someone who hasn't undergone such trauma. Same with a girlfriend raped by her boyfriend - what understanding does she have of "love" in the after math or does she simply blame herself for not "giving out enough", etc.

This for example, just a quite grab off the web. How on earth does this woman live a normal life after being raped by a person she is supposed to trust & the justice system pours a giant bucket of salt on the wounds. Her story is hardly anything new or unique. Many rape victims' stories never make the news for that matter - too afraid, too conned, too whatever. I mean nowadays a number of judges are saying to women dressing like "skanks" [tight clothes, short clothes, etc.] that you "deserved it".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3178968/Woman-told-judge-forgive-husband-drugged-raped-speaks-ordeal.html


So yeah treating rape like "tough love" to use the quote above, is in short wrong. It cheapens the event. Not only in the book but for anyone who has undergone such themselves - and trust me, it's far more common than many would like to believe.


Your example for Cocaine Chronicles is the exact reason why rape scenes should be avoided. The idea behind it seems to be 150% wrong and I don't doubt, even without reading it, that the response by both man and woman in the aftermath is likewise wrong.


In short continuing with others' posts... if you haven't experienced rape, have no friends or associates that you can "sound board" ideas off of who experienced it or work with rape victims, and/or you're too lazy as a writer to research the reality of rape ... then don't bother writing it. It's not because rape shouldn't be written as more the rape falls flat, is a poor representation of the reality and really is sort of insulting to real victims or people who know victims.

Slapping a bandage on rape - by calling it love - doesn't change that rape is rape.

 

Personally I don't really think there is such a thing as too graphic. I think it's quite patronising to a reader to tone things down for them so they 'can handle it'. Remember it's just fiction and it's 100% your work of art. Don't let other people tell you that you can't write something.

 

I agree with @Magpie. But I think it requires research. The fundamental defining feature of rape is that it is non-consensual, therefore there are no mitigating circumstances. As I said above, it also needs to be a pivotal event with consequences, not just thrown into a piece of work to define the antagonist as "bad".

 

Look how many threads in this forum discuss incorporating rape in fiction. It's certainly overdone here!

 

From HIS persective it WAS love but that's his perspective.......Ive also said that the character is nuts so obviously he would not be thinking straight to begin with.

 

Yes but these are the type off reader that want to read only rainbow and unicorn farts but secretly have the series of game of throne books stashed under their bed

 

:sim:

Okay, nobody in this discussion seems to have read @lisabeth's book, so let's not make wild assumptions.

Instead, focus on discussing the topic at hand, i.e. depictions of rape scenes, not on any one member's writing chops.