1. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Question Re-read the Rules and Have a Question

    Discussion in 'Support & Feedback' started by Lewdog, Oct 15, 2017.

    After reading the thread about suggestions of 18+ threads being changed I read the rules again to make sure my statement about thread titles including disclaimers about content. It is there, however I came across a rule that you aren't allowed to post school papers. I'm curious why you can't? I understand it would be unethical to have someone write a paper for you because then you wouldn't be earning your grade, however having someone giving you feedback and helping with editing your work is allowed in real life, why would it be wrong here? My Grad school just started a university supported writing group for papers, and there are university sponsored people that are part of the tutoring program that helps people with their papers.

    So why is it against the rules here?

    Let me add, I know some professors will do an internet search to see if a paper is plagiarized, but if a person puts it in the workshop forum that has the password protection, then it wouldn't show up, plus even if a professor accused you, you could log into your account and prove it is your paper and not someone else's.
     
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I think that people would get more help here than is acceptable. If getting the SPAG right is part of the work, then we would be doing the work for them. There's no assurance that a student would absorb the lesson of the correction--they might well just grab the corrections, apply them by rote, and move on.

    If a student has to submit a different piece, observe the corrections he's gotten, and then apply them to the paper, then we're aiding his learning, not doing his homework.

    Edited because I meant to respond to this part:

    In real life, the goal is the product. In education the goal is a specific, planned task of learning. Different goals and therefore different rules.
     
  3. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    One reason it isn't allowed here is that we've had too many instances in which someone joins the forum just to get help with a school assignment. Too many times, we've seen a member who just joined that day, and their first post is something like, "Hi! I'm sixteen and my history teacher wants us to write a five page essay on the Great Depression. It's due tomorrow! Help! I know what caused the Great Depression (fleas), but I can't write essays. I can't make up paragraphs and stuff. I know I'm supposed to have conclusions, but where do I put them? After the fleas? And where do the Dust Bowls go?"

    That's not the purpose of this forum. Members like that just milk the forum for an essay and then don't participate. We get exploited to get some desperate kid a grade they didn't earn. Nobody really benefits - it doesn't promote discussions of writing.

    So it's not allowed. Besides, we don't want the forum to be infested with fleas. o_O :p
     
  4. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    There is no difference between someone proof-reading a paper here than it being done by a writer's group in real life or at a tutoring center at the university. Part of learning is making mistakes and people letting you know what you've done wrong.
     
  5. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I can understand that, but isn't that part of the rule about having to critique other people's writing first to qualify for posting your own piece? Isn't that part of something that stops people from doing what you just described?
     
  6. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    Except that this is a creative writing forum and not an essay workshop forum.

    I've seen two instances of people posting for essay help outside of the workshop since I've been here. People who choose not to follow the "no essay" rule certainly won't follow the workshop rule.

    p.s.
    Not speaking for the staff. Just can't help myself.
     
  7. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    There is a Non-Fiction part of the forum. In particular there is an essay subforum.

    If people post asking for help outside the workshop forum, that is breaking the rules and doesn't have to do with what I posted.

    People can't circumvent the workshop rule. It has to be approved by an admin.
     
  8. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    I understood nonfiction to be "creative nonfiction." Not really allowing for essays.

    My point was that people who break the "no essays" rule clearly dgaf about rules to begin with, and so likely wouldn't follow the workshop rules either.

    They can with supporter membership though? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue. I never tried to post in the workshop before I met the criteria, but it never seemed like I needed admin approval.

    Regardless, for whatever my thoughts on the matter are worth, I don't think essays should be allowed. Schools provide resources for essay help, there's almost no demand here for essays (meaning very few people, if any, would bother giving feedback), and the essays we have seen posted fall in line with the description minstrel provided. That is, it's really only people who clearly only asked for help because they don't want to try. And personally, I'd rather not see essays in the "Recent Posts" feed. So many of us are students, and so many of us are already sick to death of the essays we have to write, never mind someone else's.
     
  9. Sir Robin

    Sir Robin Member

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    Somewhere (not here) I saw an unwritten rule where we wouldn't do somebody's homework for him or her, but we could help the person figure out what he was trying to write. We tried to act like teachers in a sense trying to get the student to figure it out for himself.
     
  10. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I'm not saying this to be rude, but if you are going to make a comment on a rule, like being able to post in the workshop, you should make sure to read the rules and be knowledgeable about them first.

    There is a post limit, a certain number of days as a member, you have to critique two other submissions from posters, and get approved by an admin before being able to post your own work for critique.


    • Posting in the Writing Workshop requires 2 or more constructive critiques of other members' work for each new posted work.
    • You must be registered for at least 14 days and have made 20 posts before you can create a thread in our workshops. (This requirement does not apply to members who purchase Supporter status.)
    https://www.writingforums.org/rules/

    The purchase of supporter status that allows people to forgo the posting guidelines serves a purpose because if someone is willing to donate to the site, more than likely they aren't going to do a hit and run on the forum.

    Whether someone decides to critique what someone posts that is non-fiction is irrelevant. People can decide not to critique work that is allowed to be posted in the workshop now.

    Not sure why you would rather not see Essays in your feed. All you have to do is ignore it and move on. No one is forcing you to click on it and read it.
     
  11. Komposten

    Komposten Insanitary pile of rotten fruit Technical Admin Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Posting whole essays (or parts thereof) for review is one issue, but maybe not the big one. Normal (i.e. non-workshop) posts can be used to circumvent doing research, essay disposition, etc. Generally, the important aspect of essay-writing assignments is not what the actual content is, but the whole process from idea and research to putting it together for the relevant context. Now, it is, of course, valid to ask for help regarding said process (the teacher should be able to provide such help, and often other school- or university-tied organisations as well). However, it is one thing to give someone pointers as to how to research or examples of dispositions, it is another thing to outright do the work for them.

    This forum is an online-based, third party environment. This makes it very hard to know what the assignment is about, and what information the student is given (so their work isn't done for them). It is also much harder to know if the student just wants someone to do their work for them (so they seek as much help as possible, whatever kind it may be) or someone that genuinely is interested in improving.

    All items posted outside of the workshop (whether it's fiction or non-fiction) are breaking the rules. Even if coursework was allowed we would still issue warnings to people for posting stuff in the wrong place.

    Approval is automated by the software. The Staff does not have to approve members before they can post in the Workshop.
     
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  12. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    If it is automated now that is a change. It used to have to be approved because people would simply post "Good job" or "I like it!" as critiques and get accepted.
     
  13. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I will add this. Most professors will not accept papers beforehand for review and critique before it is due. Also most professors don't have time to read papers and give pointers, especially at the Grad level.

    I'm still not seeing the difference between going to a third party group in real life, and posting something here for critique and help with editing. If a person posts this type of thing here, I'd say most would be intelligent enough to post what the assignment is, and a brief summary of why they picked the topic they are writing.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You're talking university. I'm thinking of fifth graders.
     
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  15. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

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    Don't worry about it, I was barely paying attention anyway.
     
  16. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Ouch! You thought I was in 5th grade?!?!

    :cry:
     
  17. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I was trying to point out you should read and know the rules before commenting. Which is quite understandable. Now you are just being rude. :supersmile:
     
  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Oh! It didn't occur to me that you were referring to you wanting the exception for yourself. I thought you were discussing rules in general.

    But it seems pretty complicated to make different rules for (1) adults who can be presumed to be accomplished writers and would like help in that context, and (2) kids who need basic SPAG help and shouldn't be aided in concealing their level of ability from their teacher.
     
  19. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I'm not asking for an exception just for me. I just don't see this forum being a huge haven for 5th graders asking for help on school writing assignments.

    If you include the same rules that are part of the Fiction Workshop where critiques are a part of being allowed to post your work, it would weed out 5th graders pretty quickly.
     
  20. big soft moose

    big soft moose The Moderating Moose Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    But as kompost said they don't just post in the work shop they post all over the place. When we were doing the ETB project we deleted upwards of 100 "please do my homework" posts* (or rather we reported them and Wrey deleted them) from the general writing section, and a fair few more from the lounge... both sections were also replete with "fuck the rules I'll post for crit where I like" posts (also deleted)

    The non fiction /essay board is subject to the same rules as the fiction workshop, but that isnt really the issue because the hit and run brigade just spray and prey into the first forum they see.

    If an established member like yourself wants some crit on an essay the best thing is not to mention the whole schoolwork thing and just stick it in the essays board

    *ETA most of them were school work not university papers
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Sorry, I should have said, "Wanted the change..."

    I'm confident that you would act responsibly in the context of that rule change. But I'm not confident in the same way about others, who might drift in just for that purpose. And I do fear we'd get the 5th graders.
     
  22. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    That's against the rules whether it is a piece of Non-Fiction or a piece of creative writing. How many posts were deleted or moved that were creative writing posts outside of the workshop?

    You just told me I should leave out pertinent information to skirt the rules? I've been here quite a long time and that's not what I want to do.

    I know I might come across as uptight to some of the newer members here, but I used to be quite active on the forum before I went back to school, and people from back then know that sometimes I might have made some asshole comments, most of the time I tried to be helpful or be light-hearted.
     
  23. big soft moose

    big soft moose The Moderating Moose Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    That's the fuck the rules posts I mentioned (wrey named them not me) ... I didn't keep an exact count but my general impression was fewer than the 'do my homework' (although that could be because FTR posts are more overt and thus likely to get reported and deleted at the time of posting rather than years later)

    It also varied year to year as I recall 2013 was an especially bad year for FTR and DMH, wheras 2012 had maybe half the number.
     
  24. big soft moose

    big soft moose The Moderating Moose Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    How old is 5th grade ?

    My feeling from ETB project was that most of the DMH posts were young to mid teenage
     
  25. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Like 10 or 11 years-old.
     

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