Question Re-read the Rules and Have a Question

At least in Sweden "university age" is 18/19 and above. Below that university standards (e.g. the professors not reading or reviewing stuff before deadline) does not apply. And even on university level (at least in Sweden), there is nothing wrong with asking the professor for help (as long as it's something that's easily answered and doesn't require the prof to spend time on).

 

That's the point of what I was saying. You can't hand your paper to a professor and ask them to help you edit it for you. That's what writer's groups are for. I'm just not seeing how this forum should be any different from real life writer's groups.

Is anyone saying that those who post their creative work here for critique or help editing, shouldn't be given it, because they wouldn't be publishing their own work?

 

No it isn't... I posted that the university actually has a Grad school writing group. You think they are going to have a university sponsored group for cheating?

 

In the scenario I described, the high-schooler in question does not have his own piece. His essay is due very soon and he hasn't written a word of it. He wants us to write his essay for him, not to just offer critique on work he's already done.

What has happened, very likely, is that he's in a panic and did a google search for writing forums. He found ours and assumed he could ask us to write an essay for him for free. He'll hand it in to his teacher without even reading it (probably). If you haven't noticed people like this on the forum, it's probably because mods are usually pretty quick to remove them quietly and bloodlessly. I've dealt with more than a handful of them myself.

 

I'm not arguing that it might not have happened. But it would be a violation of forum rules even if it were a creative piece, because they posted it outside of the workshop without following the rules for being allowed to post there.

 

It sounds like you missed my point. "Creative piece?" The high-schooler in my scenario DOES NOT HAVE A PIECE AT ALL. He can't post it in the Workshop or elsewhere because IT DOES NOT EXIST. He has NOTHING to post. He wants us to write it for him from scratch. From word one. Every word, right to the end. He wants us to come up with his ideas for him, because he doesn't have any. He wants us to do 100% of his work for him. Not merely 99%, but 100%.

So the no-schoolwork rule exists. Of course, not every person in violation of the rule matches my scenario all the way, but we have to try to be consistent in how the rules are enforced. Are the rules perfect? Of course not - any system of rules can be improved. But they're a good start.

If you have a better version of the rule in mind, post it for discussion and we'll debate it. If it's better than what we already have, we'll modify the Forum Rules to include it. We would all like the Forum to be the best it can be, so we're open to better ideas.

 

I guess the disconnect comes from my original post. I'm not talking about a scenario like the one you posted. I'm talking about a piece of writing that actually exists, and it is shared asking for critique or help editing the same as a creative piece.

I mean I'm trying to be honest, and not do like what Moose suggested. I could have just said I was writing an essay for a Law Enforcement Journal, and put it in the Essay forum to circumvent the rules.

 

On the other three workshops I post in, they all have the 'no-school work' rule.

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This ^.

People need to 'learn' how to edit their own work. I don't edit other people's work when I critique (in fact, I think rewriting someone's work is against workshop etiquette?) I point out flaws in their writing and give them resources to better educate themselves, but the work of editing and learning belongs to the writer -no one else.

Also, and this might sound harsh, but if a student can't accomplish his or her task by themselves, maybe they should fail the class. I don't blame this forum for my failures, and on the same token, I don't give the forum credit for my accomplishments. The success or failure of my work rest solely on me, and me alone; this is what students need to learn, and they will never learn that if people 'edit' their work to passing grades.

-OJB

 

Posting essays here before handing them in might not be a very good idea anyway. I don't know about grade school or high school, but when I was working on my English Major, my professors would Google parts of your essay in order to see if it was plagiarized. Even if you posted an essay here you worked hard on and got it properly critiqued and tuned it up accordingly, having a paper on a publicly searchable forum that is remarkably similar to the paper you just handed in could potentially get you into some pretty hot academic water regardless of whether you wrote it or not.

 

Let me use your logic against you. If you plan on trying to get something published, then you shouldn't be posting it here for critique or help editing because if you can't do it yourself then you don't deserve to be able to get it published.

I hate to break this to you, but even Professors with Doctorate degrees ask other people to review their papers before they try to get them published.

 

The workshop is a password protected part of the forum that is not picked up through search engines. Also, if it did come up, as I said earlier, I could simply show them that it is my work by logging into the site.

 

This 100% what I am saying. If I could produce work after work that was published worthy than I would not be workshopping. Why would I?

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Edit: I really have no interest in arguing about this. In my opinion, schoolwork is not appropriate for the workshop environment for reasons I've listed. You're free to disagree, but I really don't want to turn this thread into an argument.

 

I totally forgot this was a thing even though it's one of the reasons I decided to sign up and stop lurking. Oh well, guess I'm an idjit.

I can't remember if it happened to someone I knew, or if it's just a pseudo-memory from hearing about it so much, but apparently someone got clipped for plagiarism because a TA was helping with checks, stopped, and someone else took over and double scanned the last document. So the students paper got nailed for 100% plagiarism even though the paper they allegedly plagiarized was their own. I'm pretty sure it got sorted out, but the wheels of bureaucracy and all that can definitely put a damper on your semester.

I don't think I understand, are you saying that every author that's used a proofreader or an editor doesn't deserve to be published?

 

This assumes that academic and commercial standards for getting help with work are the same.

 

I've already stated that the University I'm attending has a university sponsored writer's group. Many universities have tutoring services that allow students to have tutors help them with critiquing and proof reading their papers.

I was just following the logic of the other poster.

I really wasn't trying to make this a huge debate. I just don't understand the logic that a person can get third party help with critique and proof reading of an academic piece of writing, but it isn't welcome here.

 

Again, you're talking university level. The rules need to deal with the 5th grader or 9th grader who wants us to do his homework.

Weren't you invited to suggest another set of rules, though?

 

But in no way have I stated that I am referring to anything like a post where someone just comes here and posts they have a paper due in the morning on the Civil War and wants someone to write the paper for them. I am talking about critique and proof reading work that is already written. It's apples and oranges.

I'm saying the rule of no school work, should not include the critiquing and proof reading of an actual piece of non-fiction, and it should be acceptable in a non-fiction part of the work shop. The "no school work" part of the rules should simply state, "Do not come here posting that you need someone to write a paper for an assignment you have for school."

With that said, no matter what the rules are, if a 5th grader comes here, they are more than likely not going to read the rules regardless of what they say.

 

What if we were able to post school work that's already been handed in to get other opinions on it or get critique on things like clarity, voice, and style. Being in school full time makes it hard to write like 4 or 5 research essays a week as well as pump out a few personal projects just to get an outside opinion on your writing style. I can completely understand why someone that's serious about wanting to improve their writing would want to post some school work on occasion.

 

I hate to mention the obvious, but there IS an 'essay' section in the Workshop.

If a member has been here for long enough, done the required number of critiques and made the required number of posts, etc, they should be able to post an essay there for critique.

This means, as @minstrel pointed out, they'll need to have already written an essay. Whether they've written the essay for a school project or just off their own bat will (or should) not be obvious.

The person will need get their essay done in plenty of time to get feedback and apply feedback to edit the piece. So in a sense, @Lewdog , if a student was smart enough to a) get the rough draft of their essay done way ahead of its due date and b) not say 'hey, this is my schoolwork and I need help', there isn't any reason why somebody couldn't put a school-related essay up for critique right now.

I would personally have no difficulty with that. However—and here's the kicker—we would be inclined to critique the writing and NOT the content of the piece. If the content is all out of whack because the student hasn't done proper research or whatever, we're really not going to know, are we? And that's likely to be a big part of their grade, depending on the subject.

I don't think it's advanced students with an already-written piece that this 'no schoolwork' rule is meant to counter. This rule exists, as Minstrel said, to eliminate the folks who pop in here out of the blue and want us to write their essay (and do their research) for them.

 

It seems a very sensible rule to me, on all levels.

 

Yes. Me too.

 

I was just trying not to break the rules, and thus why I started this thread. However now that people know my work is for term papers in my Grad program, they know it is school work.

I have to finish up a ten page paper on vigilante justice, and do a 15+ page paper on the construction of the anti-hero, examples of anti-heroes, and how they are received by society.

And I have 2 smaller 4 page essays to do before the end of the semester... Not to mention doing research towards my thesis. So you can see why I don't write many flash fiction stories anymore. I did however getting woken up this morning from a dream that could be quite the story. It involved Nikki Minaj, food, and sports. And oddly Minaj isn't high on my wish list but for some reason she was there.

 

You're a member of long standing and you have written your paper, more or less. I don't imagine anybody would kick if you PMd a trusted member of the forum and asked for feedback in private. I would volunteer, except I'm in the middle of two major beta reads just now, and have made a resolution that I won't take on any more until I've managed to put the cap on my own novel. I'm so close to being able to publish it ...but I keep getting distracted.

However, I'm sure some other folk might be willing to do this for you ...or may even volunteer! Good luck!