Expresses themselves, their ideas and thoughts, through stories and words. I love it when someone takes part of a single sentence completely out of context and then makes fun of it. Fantastic.
Nope. I read your whole post and responded to your main point. But this is what got me to respond the way I did: That attitude is disrespectful to authors and dismissive of entire art of fiction, which is the art of making things up that the storyteller never experienced and talking about them in a way that the audience enjoys.
I have to say that I really don't understand that attitude. Writing is often about the author trying to examine lives different than their own. Now, as it is with everything else, this can be done incredibly well or incredibly badly (usually it's something in-between). I do appreciate first-hand experience and I try to gain it as often and as much as I can (I've even gotten hurt a bunch of times seeking to gain 1st-hand experience of things such as medieval European swordsmanship, boxing, parkour etc), but when it's impossible, we have to use our imagination supplemented with vast quantities of research. What other option is there? Rhetoric questions aside, since most authors don't murder, rape, molest children, or have sex with people of the sex they are not attracted to, if they ever want to examine the delicate subjects of murder, rape, child abuse, or the possible challenges of belonging to a minority sexuality when IRL they don't, they have no other choice but to rely on their imaginations, sense of empathy etc. and tons of research. Out of interest (so I can better understand your point), have you ever written about any of the above subjects? If no, ignore this paragraph. If yes: how do you justify writing such touchy subjects without 1st-hand experience when you are downright offended when a man dares to write a female character with weight problems? And, what's more, you judge the book as unreadable garbage without even reading it simply because of the author's sex (what if he was actually a pre-op transgendered man, i.e. a person who feels like a woman stuck in a man's body; does that affect anything and if yes, how did you know that wasn't the case?). You admit it's possible the author actually pulled it off, portrayed the female MC's weight issues perfectly, but you still choose to be insulted instead of actually checking out the book. I have to wonder why is that? [The following is slightly off-topic but leads back to the topic eventually] I mean, if we compare men's and women's weight issues, there are more than one side (which you portrayed) to that issue, as usual. For instance, a girl can be a little pudgy, yet when it's hot outside and she puts on tiny shorts or a mini skirt and a small top or a bikini top, she will get lots of positive reinforcement from the men around her. The large majority of men don't give a damn about a little extra weight on a scantily clad, cute girl. Now, if you're a guy, you have only a few choices and none of them good: 1. Dress in the only sensible, socially acceptable summer outfit, i.e. below-the-knee shorts and a t-shirt even if it's 100F outside. Does it get uncomfortably hot and sweaty? Hell yeah. 2. Dress in short shorts and a tank top. People, men and women alike, will laugh at you, think you look ridiculous, that you have absolutely zero sense of style etc. The rare gem of a woman might actually enjoy the extra skin the guy is showing, but societies in general seem to believe men should keep their thighs concealed for whatever reason I will never understand but do abide by (all my shorts are long). 3. Dress in long shorts but go shirtless. If you're athletic and truly ripped, i.e. your body fat is in the single digits and your 6-pack shines through etc, some people around you will see you as an idiotic show-off while some others will envy your physique (men) or admire you (women). Now, if you don't happen to be as perfect as professional athletes, male models etc. and happen to have a normal body fat level, the number of envious and admiring looks comes crashing down; nobody likes a pudding belly or wobbly arms, thighs, calves, butt, man-boobs etc. The number of people who see you as repulsive or ridiculous sky-rockets. So how come such perfection isn't demanded of girls too? Why do even the pudgy ones get a lot of sexual attention? Why can they get laid whenever they want while their male counterparts, chubby guys, are lucky if they get some action once a year if even that? Yes, I'm generalizing quite a bit here, but I have to in order to make my point: men don't have it any easier. Their challenges regarding e.g. weight are just somewhat different, they face different expectations from the people around them. In fact, I claim overweight guys have it worse than overweight girls: if a girl walks into a bar and declares that she wants to get laid, as long as the place isn't totally empty, she will get laid and probably has more than one guy to choose from. Now flip the sexes and what will happen? The guy would be laughed out of the bar or first smacked around and then kicked out for acting like an ass. Who had it worse, i.e. who is better suited to write about the miseries of a representative of the opposite sex or should neither even dare try? Add to that the fact that when boys are bullied, the bullying is social, psychological, as well as physical whereas more often than not (according to statistics), girls aren't e.g. beaten by the bullies; commonly they are bullied socially and psychologically. So since boys have to deal with actual violence on top of everything else, couldn't it be possible that a male author would have enough of an idea about how to write bullying even from a girl's POV? Or are girls just so totally different from boys in this regard? I'm wondering about that in today's context when, while still relatively rare, physical bullying is becoming more common among girls (usually committed by girls 'cause guys who hit girls are pussies etc...) and among boys, social and psychological bullying is becoming more and more prominent, i.e. the differences between the bullying of boys and that of girls is fading, making the victims' experiences more and more similar. In the light of those observations, are men truly such a different animal from women that they shouldn't write (or shouldn't be allowed to write, even?) about weight problems through the eyes of a woman, or if they do, no matter how well it's written, it's not worth reading and should be ignored and treated like an insulting piece of shit? Should men even be allowed to write female characters with such delicate issues? Or have I just completely misunderstood what you said?
I think that I would be annoyed by an author who: 1) wrote about something about which they had no personal experience. and 2) tried to declare a moral about that topic. However, I'm annoyed by (2) in any case. Example: Let's say that I read a novel about a compulsive hoarder who was persuaded by her children to go into therapy, and who learned how to make good decisions and throw things away and cleaned up her house, yay. As the daughter of a mild compulseive hoarder, my response would be, "Yeah, right, that might happen. And I might win the lottery twice in one day, too." But I don't think I'd actually be angry. However, if the book openly or semi-openly communicated the moral that compulsive hoarders are poor widdle helpless creative people who would eagerly work toward curing themselves if all of us mean people would just give them the help that they're crying out for, I would throw the book through something. Anything can happen, however unlikely. It's communicating that that happening is how things usually go or should go that would annoy me.
I can't help adding an off-topic remark: To me, those below-the-knee shorts are very new and not particularly socially acceptable. My guy wears slightly-below-mid-thigh shorts because that's what he's always worn, for decades. Yes, I am also old enough to feel that shirts with shirttails (curved rather than straight) are supposed to be tucked in. And (gulp) that the waistband of jeans should be at the waist.
Great post, T, except...who the hell would want to read a book about weight problems anyway? That sounds like the whiniest thing I've ever heard in my life
I don't refuse to read a book every time I notice a male protagonist is written by a female, so why should I hold females written by males to a higher standard. How do you judge anything before reading it yourself? I also see what you are saying, ChickenFreak. That is why The Fault in Our Stars annoyed me so much, because I was a caretaker for my mother who deteriorated and died of cancer before the age of 50. It was so unrealistic, and horrified me in how it glorified cancer. It also made death from it seem so peaceful, which anyone who has witnessed a loved one die full of pain and dementia can tell you it's not, or anyone who works in the medical field. However, I disagree that one has to personally experience a situation to write it accurately. This requires more effort on the writer's part. If one dedicates themselves to researching the subject matter, you can still have a decent piece. And learn something in the process.
This is an interesting opinion, and it certainly feeds into the 'write what you know' axiom and it makes sense. But I personally have two problems with this. 1. I find writing about things I know, like my profession, places I lived in, people I knew, situations I've been in, interminably boring. Even though I could be writing medical mysteries, and they are super popular, and I'd make them great because I can construct one in my sleep, or if I wrote about being a refugee, or playing tennis etc I can't think of anything less interesting then writing about that, unless I dramatise it so much (in order to entertain myself) that it's at best peppered with 'what I know' and the rest is pure fiction. 2. It's obvious that majority of fiction is written about people who are wildly different from the authors who write them. Dostoyevsky never murdered anyone, neither did Tess Gerritsen, Jo Nesbo, heck, neither of them are even detectives! Tolkien certainly never went to Middle Earth, Dumas was never imprisoned, escaped, found massive fortune and went back to have revenge in those who hurt him. And then there's sci fi and fantasy and romance and erotica. The thing is, all these people did write what they knew, only in relationships, character reactions, thoughts, feelings, it's easy to put a person in an unfamiliar situation if you know them and you know how they'll react. There are many ways to weave in 'write what you know' without writing about the people that are just like you or about the exact things you've experienced. Edited to add: the book you mentioned. I think weight is a taboo, it's the most active form of discrimination today, and there's almost zero empathy or interest to hear how over 30% of the population struggles. So much so, the dominant opinion is that they are all lazy and disgusting, that it's all their own fault, and no amount of facts to the contrary are enough to sway the public opinion (or media's!) so unfortunately, those people are marginalised in life as much as in fiction. Just like a hundred years ago, nobody white bothered reading about slaves' struggles, or fifty years ago, about the wows of a middle aged homosexual. We love stories about all that now, that the discriminators have been shamed, but once upon a time, people were disgusted and wouldn't touch a narrative sympathetic to a slave, or a woman, or a gay, with a ten foot pole. A male writing a female in this context could be challenging, but not impossible, especially if he struggled himself or knew someone who did. Then again, the book could've been shit. But I don't think him being a man is a guarantee that it'll be good or bad. I personally wouldn't be attracted to the premise because I like to escape in my lit, I've been through too much pain and hardship irl, seen people go through the worst of it, I really don't need another downer in my fiction. But that's just personal preference, I couldn't care less who wrote it.
I have one close lesbian friend, and she seems to be into the athletic type the most, but while she's tomboyish herself appearance and hobby wise, she's not masculine with her advances, and sees things in women I'd sometimes have a hard time writing for some roughnecked marine. I recognize that women can be pretty lewd, but I think I was a bit self-conscious about making my characters too stereotypically dude-like. Granted, one was more drawn to the athletic and even aggressive type while the other dated "a mousy girl." A gay writing prompt, I like it . Okay, so what do I see in Rosario Dawson... I'm sorry to hear that. That must have been incredibly tough. Have you read e.g. Dave Eggers' The Heartbreaking Work of a Staggering Genius? I wonder if you'd be able to compare the representations of cancer in that and then in The Fault in Our Stars 'cause if I remember correctly, Eggers' mom died of cancer. I have an overweight character written for the sequel of the WIP (it lacks revision, though), and I did quite a bit research for it 'cause I specifically wanted to show the It doesn't come down to laziness -side of it. I know it's probably dubious and stupid of me, I suppose if a woman who's ever struggled with her weight read it they'd find something to criticize about it, but I can't help it, I'm interested in their POV, and I wanted to see the world through their eyes with this character so as to better understand their experience. After all, a lot of such women and girls write slim, actiony female characters doing things in a fantasy setting they've never done themselves, and that should be ok too.
Haha, yes, she is cute I have to think about mine, they change over time. Maybe Rhianna. Or Alicia Keys. This is cool, I'm sure you've explored that character as sensitively and intelligently as you approach people, I've noticed that about you. You must be a great teacher I've been on both sides of the coin, chubby, normal, very underweight, overweight, the whole spectrum. After years of fierce dedication to beautifying myself, I got sick and no longer could do things I used to do in order to keep myself in tip-top shape. When I was younger, in my country, there's a strong body-fascist approach and women were harassed for every tiny ounce of flab they had, so I got into the exercise and dieting very young. All of a sudden, I couldn't diet with all the meds I was taking, not to mention exercise, with the ongoing symptoms I've had. That lasted about 4 years, but it was long enough, if you know what I mean. What I've noticed is, on one hand, it can be quite challenging, being pretty and smart, because people find solace in the fact that if you are beautiful, at least you are dumb, and some don't deal well with that dream being shattered. Going anywhere alone could get quite uncomfortable, friend's boyfriends and husbands flirting, it was embarrassing, and I'd feel like I let them down without doing anything. I got harassed a lot and saw the worst side of men when they get angry for being rejected, on a regular basis, and it was exhausting. Now, I feel safer and more human, because people simply relate to me as a person much more then before, when my look was the front gate, and most stopped at that. I don't miss it, but I miss the armour it gave me. I've become more in-tune with what people must experience if they've never been beautiful. When you are good looking, and in this world for a woman it means thin and fit with curves (?!) people give you a chance where they would not if you were fat. Especially women are considered to have failed in some way if they weren't born beautiful or at least, thin (because, you know, you can diet and exercise, smoke, eat dust and you'll get thin, and if you don't - then you must be lazy). Beauty is the foremost quality a woman, as an archetype in our society, is judged on, unlike men, who are primarily judged on their capability which is why fat discrimination ultimately does affect them less, because they aren't written off as human beings because of their weight, whereas women often are.
It's a scale. No man is 100% masculine and no woman is 100% feminine. Write a character named John and then go back through the story and change John to Jane and you'll have a female character who's just as realistic as any stereotype. We're not as different as we like to think.
As long as you remember to change any mention of the genitalia. Well, in all seriousness, I do think @jazzabel makes a few relevant points about how certain experiences can be different, thanks to societal norms. We've talked about these a lot on this forum. Aw, thanks, I hope so! I like to think I've grown a bit from the ignorant git I used to be when younger, heh. I'm sorry to hear that. Outside pressure is very hard to fight, especially if a certain norm is very strong and prevalent in a specific region or country. Every now and then our media reminds us Finnish women how much better and more beautiful Russian women are because they pretty themselves up in a traditionally feminine way (mini skirts, tube tops, elaborate hair, a cloud of perfume, and a ton of make-up plus add to that a diet of dust), which is not the norm in our bottom heavy jeans-and-t-shirt culture. I'm not saying which is better, in fact, both are more or less extremes anyway, but I'm personally comfier in my sneakers and jeans, thank you very much. If I'm perfectly honest, nowadays I'm scared of grooming myself too much. I need something to counter-balance it. In my avatar pic, despite the heavy make-up fitting for a heavy metal gig, I wore a tank top, jeans, and paratrooper boots so as to downplay the rest of my femininity or whatever we should call it. If I go out there in high heels and a skimpy dress, the attention it garners makes me self-conscious. I'm sure a lot of women enjoy it and thrive on it, good for them, but I get nervy and awkward. But the experiences you've described could be useful for a man to read about. Conversely, I find it interesting how men navigate themselves in social situations, how their insecurities affect them, how hurtful constant rejections can be, how outside pressure affects them, how they too can feel abused, and so on. Men probably have their own challenges that hinder e.g. career advancement. I've noticed that if you're unattractive according to the given society, it's difficult to get ahead. If you're attractive, it's difficult to be taken seriously. Another good reason for reading stories from all genders, ages, sizes, etc. is that it'll help understand others and the world better -- if one wants to gain such knowledge, of course. I concur! Apparently we have a similar taste in women, lol.
I had to chuckle at this because I *LOVE* Goodfellas (and even referenced it in a post I made earlier this morning). I totally root for Henry, and I really feel for him at the end, when he's lamenting the loss of his exciting life and how everything is now really boring. But to the initial post, I have not found it hard to relate to a protagonist based on gender. I'm female, but probably 85% of my MCs/POVs are male. That's not by design, it just ends up this way. I did a writing exercise where we needed to write a story based on a scene that had one male and one female character. I just absorbed the scene and took it from there, and even though I didn't intend to, I ended up writing a story from the male character's POV. Only a couple other people in this group who had the same exercise did that -- most kept it omniscient, showing both POVs, and some went with the female, so it wasn't something in the scene itself that skewed toward the male character. It was just me. I have always done better working with and being among groups of men. In groups of women, I always get into trouble, and the group splinters into factions, with some group disliking me. That never happens to me in groups that are mostly men and I don't enjoy dealing with the drama. But I feel like I've usually been able to relate to a protagonist who is either male or female. I'm trying to think now about most of the novels I've enjoyed and how many had male versus female protagonists. I think they've been split fairly evenly. I've also enjoyed novels with protagonists who are part of a culture different from mine, which I think is harder to write. I am white, and have not written a protagonist of color, and I have no real desire to do so -- I have a big fear I'd get the details wrong and convey a very inauthentic experience. I have not written a gay character, but I think I could - I just haven't tried it. I read The Wolf of Wall Street, which is not a novel, but a memoir, and while it was an interesting read, I could not stand the guy -- he was just such a complete jackass. In some ways, it was impressive that this guy would write about himself in such an unflattering manner, but I'm not sure that he really felt that most of it was all that bad. As always, the book was so much more in depth and nuanced than the movie, but in both, I had no sympathy for the "protagonist." Part of what was amazing about that story is that it was all true -- I don't know how I would have felt had it been a novel.
dyslexia means i read slow, i just wish i could cut off a few of your fingers so you guys slow down a bit.
Lies. You just want to wear a finger necklace for the annual sacrificial ceremony during the full moon. u__u I prefer eyeballs though, more stylistic.
Jazzabel has it right. Society, unfortunately, judges women on their beauty first. It doesn't matter if she's capable or not, if she doesn't fit within their narrow perception of beauty, then she's somehow a failure. Men have a cushion in that if they at least prove themselves capable anyway, society will overlook it. Though God help both of those sexes if they aren't born with the beauty and capability that society likes. >__> Personally, I write my characters based on their personality, based on the environment they grew up in, their own beliefs and morals. Last thing I want is to have characters who are walking stereotypes. They are what they are, I'm not going to conform my characters to the point where they're just flat caricatures. Take The Fault in Our Stars. The only relatable character out of the three major characters was Isaac, the kid who went blind because eye cancer took his other eye. We saw him before and after the operation, we saw a bit about how he reacted, his depression and anger, etc. To me, I could relate to him because his behavior was convincing enough that I could at least understand what he was going through. Augustus and Hazel? Not so much. They had their own problems, but Augustus was by far the worst. He seemed to exist only to be a parody of the clichéd 'strong cancer patient' you find in most cancer books. Hazel seemed to exist only to flip the middle finger at those clichés. If you make their struggles believable, you can make the readers relate to them, even if you had never been through it personally.
The reason this problem came up was because i'm trying to write a female additional MC along side the protagonist, the story feels like it should have her in it, i just cant seem to pin it down. I thought trying to understand the character i've created might help me find a place for her. I know this is a backward way of thinking but i have some good ideas that involved her, the problem is the main story arc could continue with or without her, her part in the story is interchangeable with a few other characters. I dont want to run into a cliché with her. Damsel in distress etc.
I absolutely, 100% agree. Raging Bull is a technical masterpiece, but I don't like spending two hours or more with an ignorant asshole - in reality or film. My favorite Scorsese movies are Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, because Travis Bickle is interesting and damaged and there's a lot going on inside him. The conflict is interesting. Also, Rupert Pupkin is fun to be around. Jake LaMotta is not. Otherwise, I can pass on most of Scorsese's filmography. Henry Hill wants to be a criminal, but he can't. Boo hoo hoo. Grow up. What kind of message is this sending me? "Hey, you. Yeah, the schnook watching this movie. If you got up and killed some people every now and then, your life would be amazing." There is the downfall, but there is no realization on the protagonist's part. What a horrible, horrible message, and a horrible, horrible person. A more interesting and enjoyable take on the criminal lifestyle, one which actually explores how the people come to value this lifestyle so we can view these characters with empathy, can be found in Sergio Leone's masterful ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA, which I would argue is one of the finest films ever made. Or, if you want to see a story similar to Goodfellas, but with characters you actually enjoy being around, watch BOOGIE NIGHTS. Beat for beat, that movie is Goodfellas, but with the porn industry standing in for the mob. And because the characters are so enjoyable, the movie is so much more fun to watch. I would rank Boogie Nights high about Goodfellas based on this criteria alone.
Would it help if you asked yourself: -why is she a part of the other MC's life? (a co-worker, business partner, drug dealer...) -what does she contribute to the story? How is she essential to it? Maybe she's a cynic who needs to learn a few lessons in life from the male MC and she develops into a less cynical person. Maybe she is responsible for tuning the male MC's life around in some fundamental way, or vice versa. -what kind of female character are you interested in portraying? What do you want to say through her? If you find writing a scene where the guy rescues the girl enjoyable, go for it, write it, a girl can get in trouble, as long as that's not all she is about. -pinpoint her motivation. Why does she make a certain decision? If it's to support the plot, you might want to re-think it. If it's something she'd do considering her personality, uupbringing, life experience etc. you're on your way to write a unique character... who can still get in trouble and be saved by the guy!
-she's a pilot, she outranks him. -feels like she should be the love interest, she provides level headed moral balance & advice to the MC. Her pilot skills help on a few occasions. -she has to be confident, strong willed, meticulous & methodical but feminine. I want her to be a worrier but reserved with it, she will admire the MC at somepoint, and later mix that with a little bit of fear Thats all i can think of right now, the problem is if i remove the love interest i could clearly rewrite her as a generic solider boy and it would still progress the story as if she wasnt there. I might entangle her in a plot twist or two.
I feel as if this leads you to a place where it's much, much easier to write her as a stereotyped character. I'd recommend against it. Also, the idea that a female character MUST be a love interest, because otherwise why isn't she male? is one that I think is worth resisting.
