Reluctance to Critique

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by Trakaias, Nov 13, 2009.

  1. Destin

    Destin New Member

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    It looks like everybody is getting worked up over everyone else's misunderstandings. I think we can all agree that a great story is made up of alot of things. To list a few:
    Plot
    Characters
    Descriptions
    Language
    SPaG
    Pacing
    Flow
    Theme
    Formatting
    Dialogue
    Style

    There are others, but I think it would be safe to assume that ANY piece of this list should be adequate for review as long as the review meets the criteria laid out in the contructive review rules. And they are:

    Constructive critique is specific. Vague suggestions like "Fix spelling and grammar errors" ate inadequate.

    Constructive critique indicates why a change should or should not be made. Simply rewriting a sentence or two as you would express it isn't critique. It's vanity, unless you can offer a reason for making the change. Similarly, just saying you like some paragraph or verse isn't constructive unless you can say why the passage is superior and should not be changed.

    Ideally, constructive critique should suggest possible solutions to perceived weaknesses. This is where diligent critiquing really pays off for the critic. If you can see a problem and a solution in someone else's writing, you can do the same in your own.

    So as long as a person follows those 3 main points, they should be able to touch on any of the elements of writing.

    I think we're all saying the same thing here but we're just tied up in one of those infinite misunderstandings. It's true that writers need to learn the craft and critiquing is a great way to do it. But not everyone is an expert on SPaG, not everyone is an expert on flow and pacing. It's experience and knowledge that enable us to control the finest points of the writing craft. Those of us who are less familiar with these finer points, I think, should still be acknowledged as providing constructive review, given they follow the 3 pointers.

    I think what Leaka is saying is that he is fairly confident in his SPaG and he doesn't really want a review on SPaG because he knows his stuff is good. He isn't going to put up some hack piece of work littered with SPaG errors and say, "Just ignore my crappy spelling and review everything else." The problem is he puts up a piece with fairly solid SPaG and gets a review from somebody on SPaG when there are only 3 or 4 minor changes to be made.

    Now should that count as a more complete review than a person who goes through and analyzes the realism of his characters, the quality of his plot, and the consistency of his language? Of course not. And I already know that isn't the case because my reviews which have included those things have passed the test before.

    If I'm wrong, please let me know so I can stop wasting my time. I feel the reviews I've been providing have been constructive and helpful. Maybe they don't touch on pacing and flow every time because I feel the author isn't at that point where they need to worry about it. Maybe I think the SPaG is good enough that I don't need to worry about it.

    Every story needs something different. We can only improve on what isn't perfect already, and we can't turn every story into a masterpiece.
     
  2. garmar69

    garmar69 Contributor Contributor

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    To me, any critique that goes in-depth into an issue is helpful. If someone notices that I'm forgetting to place a comma before a direct address, or just am not aware I'm doing it wrong, and explains what I'm doing wrong and why, I think that's great. If they go into more reader subjective issues like originality, pacing, characterization, and explain exactly why it didn't work for them, ditto.

    It surprises me that so many get aggravated over someone trying to help with the foundation of good writing--SPaG.

    This all falls back to taking what you want from a critique and let the staff decide if that person has fulfilled their requirement for posting their own work. Some people just want to hear that their story is the next coming of The Great American Novel and this helps them.

    Such reviews just won't carry either person very far in the workshop.
     
  3. Unsavory

    Unsavory Active Member

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    I think what a lot of people are afraid of in regard to their first review is the possibility that they might mislead people into writing something worse. It's normal to have a lack of confidence in your own ability as a reviewer at first, but your review isn't singlehandedly going to wreck a person's piece. Make an effort and you'll get better and better both by gaining some confidence and by reading the reviews of others.

    This might be unpopular to say, but I do believe that being reviewed for the first time helped me MUCH more than writing my first reviews. My first reviews were horribly flawed, short, and uneducated. Being reviewed for the first time showed me what was wrong with my work and I could project what I had learned and build upon that through more exposure to the site. Getting reviewed for the first time though was my launching point. I didn't know enough beforehand to really say much.
     
  4. garmar69

    garmar69 Contributor Contributor

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    You make a good point about the fear involved in a first review. I found that doing reviews improved my work a lot more than receiving them, even though I was scared I would screw up. I probably did 15-20 here before I even wrote my first story last year. What helped the most was the study involved to make sure I was giving accurate information. Which is the whole point of learning to become a competent reviewer, because one day you'll have to do the entire process yourself with limited social interaction before shipping it off to a publisher.

    I know to some it doesn't seem like helping someone else on their work is advancing your own, but it works if you trust the process. To be honest, the reviews I received publicly helped me very little--with a few exceptions, of course. It was the time spent critically thinking about others' work and private help that helped me the most.
     
  5. Rocker

    Rocker New Member

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    Well, I completed my first critique. I feel unqualified to offer input, but I did so anyway. Did I write anything useful or do harm? Honestly, I need someone to write a critique on my critique to learn how to offer helpful input! And if someone did this, would that count as a credit or merely a passing observation?

    Look, I am a musician of 30 years. I can offer feedback on that subject as a professional. I can express myself in this medium quite well, too. If you want some constructive feedback on playing the bass guitar, music in general, I am your man! However, I am not a writer, so I resent being asked... required... to offer input on something I know so little about.

    I am visiting this forum to receive feedback from the educated writers and teachers, so that I might one day voluntarily offer a keen eye to others. My friends are not writers, so I surf the cyber-space to find such a forum only to learn I must be a qualified writer/educator to participate- this is a bit of a catch .22.

    If the issue is that there are not enough writers offering feedback to each other perhaps you might contact a few universities, encourage the Dean of an English major program to have students do practicum work here as a part of their training?

    Matt

    PS I don't feel all warm and toasty about participating in this forum, but I will give it a chance.
     
  6. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Rocker,

    Your critique for "Wish you were here" was fine. In general, only the Reviewers on the site should be critiquing critiques. Other members should review the piece of writing presented by the thread starter.

    The more you critique, the more confidence you will develop in your ability to offer constructive suggestions. You'll probably make some poor calls, but that's part of learning. The writers are learning too: How to offer the writing without pre-biasing the critics, how to accept critique in a way that teams with critics to root out the real problems (which may not be exactly what the critic pinpointed), and how to filter out the suggestions that won;t improve the writing.

    All this is far more important and helpful than the actual suggestions you receive on your submitted writing. The more you critique, the more you read other critique, and the more you look at the revisions made in response to suggestions, the better handle you will have on picking out problems in your own or someone else's writing.
     
  7. jlauren

    jlauren New Member

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    OK, I have read through all of these posts and I feel slightly annoyed. I agree with both sides of the arguement, but I need to ask something of those people who say, "I don't feel adequate to offer a critique."

    DO YOU READ BOOKS?

    It really doesn't take much effort to critique someone's work if you are a reader yourself. You're going to know instantly when something doesn't work or sounds wrong. Think about it - you don't need to be an expert in writing. It's easy to assess whether a piece flows well, or is too bland, rigid, confusing etc. Every critique is going to be in your opinion anyway. If you are not sure about the advice you're giving when it comes to technicalities, then say so! You can only offer what you have.

    Yes, it feels good to have someone say, "Oh my God! You're piece was amazing!" And there are times when you don't care about your sentence structure or poor choice of words, you just need someone to boost your confidence and give you a bit of focus to keep going. There's nothing wrong with that. We all need encouragement in our gift. But there are also times when it's helpful to have someone tell you, "This piece was good, but..."

    So what's the solution? Maybe, when critiquing a piece, we should try to give just as much positive feedback as negative. If the piece was rubbish, say so and say why. But remember, unless you encourage the writer to keep going, they may just quit before their breakthrough.

    And when it comes to SPAG, if you see errors, then comment. If not, don't feel like you need to sift through the piece and look for them. It doesn't take much more than a bit of common sense to give a worth-while critique. I've read through critiques where the poster only offered corrections on facts in the story, becasue they knew first-hand. That's helpful, right?

    When I'm being critiqued, I don't automatically take everyone's advice as truth. I don't care if you say you are a published writer. At the end of the day, I will take your advice if I feel it's right for me. I compare advice to books I've read, and things I've been taught.

    So I think everyone needs to take a chill pill and remember that we are all in the same boat here - we're writer's on a quest to make ourselves a little better.
     
  8. Rocker

    Rocker New Member

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    I'll work on my self-confidence in terms of writing.

    Yes, I do read and have many subjective opinions, but that doesn't mean I'd like to write about them. Again, I do not feel qualified to the point to which I might be helpful. So, I'll give it a shot anyway, with the hope someone competent might review my own writing and offer desperately needed feedback.
     
  9. Destin

    Destin New Member

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    Consider this:

    You only need to put up 2 reviews and you will RARELY get less than 10 reviews back.

    Looks like a fair trade to me!

    Start by reviewing the stuff you feel confident about. As you read reviews and do more reviews, you will feel confident reviewing other aspects.
     
  10. garmar69

    garmar69 Contributor Contributor

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    @ Rocker. I looked at the work you posted and given the quality of what I saw there I would say you have a lot more to offer than you think. It's as simple as expanding on your observations.

    Good review: I liked this story. Or I had an issue with the plot, pacing, SPaG, etc. And then explain why you had an issue or liked the story and give your opinion of how to improve what you found. Every story can be improved in some way; nothing's perfect. It doesn't have to be a dissertation, just constructive advice that focuses on a particular aspect(s) of the work.

    gar.

    Edit: I wasn't implying that because your writing appears to be quite good that that makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's, just that you seem competent and shouldn't doubt yourself. Everyone's opinion matters here.
     
  11. fantasy girl

    fantasy girl New Member

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    I had the same problem when I first started here. But what I did, was told people why I liked something, or why I didn't like something. I thought well this really isn't going to help, but I often find, it is the new people who comment like that, that help the most. yes, the more experienced poeple who do detailed critiques help, but the things they point out, could be corrected on MS Word.

    Fantasy Girl xx
     
  12. ManhattanMss

    ManhattanMss New Member

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    It seems to me that more experienced writers find genuine comments from readers exceptionally useful, while novice writers seek more structured and definitive advice. My impression is that the "rules" of this forum are designed to avoid having disingenuous, empty, unhelpful remarks made about stories just for the sake of "paying enough dues" to post one's own story. Absent details, things like how great the story is or how abysmal are just impossible to make good use of. But my impression when I first arrived here (and even still) is that the rules of this forum lean heavily toward the "teaching" side, which I found intimidating, just as some other reviewers have mentioned. I'm not a teacher or mentor, after all, and have no desire to be either. I don't even like feedback that sounds so authoritative that it suggests there's only one way to correct one thing or another (which I don't believe for a minute). But ultimately, even novice writers can learn to benefit from the kind of honest feedback you mention, however it's delivered. And we can all benefit from corrections (when they're actually "correct"), and eventually we'll learn which is which--or at least that's something to shoot for.
     
  13. bluebell80

    bluebell80 New Member

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    Rocker, there is always an alternative. Many of us here offer private reviewing. I know I have done it for a few who had not posted 2 critiques, one I had spent an hour writing the critique -- because I really liked it, but saw many, many flaws -- that I emailed to them since their thread was locked for not having the requirement critiques.

    If you get to know people here, either through the lounge or through just general writing postings, many will offer to read things for you, or offer it to whom ever might want it. But, to post something in the review room, you have to show adequate participation in the review room. Those are the rules and we all appreciate them (at least those of us who have or do post in the review room.)

    (This next part is not addressed to you -- Rocker-- directly)

    I don't understand how someone who wants to write something can feel inadequate to give a critique. Even before I started writing fiction seriously, I was an avid reader. I knew what worked and what didn't. Even when I didn't feel confident in red marking someone else's grammar choices, I knew what worked when read. I could read a sentence and say "That just sounds awkward to me." Taking basic level college English classes helped me really grasp why things were awkward. I went an entire semester irritated with my teacher's red pen, but in the end she was right and I was stupid. I learned a lot from a basic English course. I learned more from later classes and from even more strict teachers in Lit classes. But, I learned more from the teachers who were strict, irritatingly strict, than I did the teachers who let people just slide.

    That is why I am always strict in my critiques when I give them. I give encouragement when it is warranted, but am rather harsh in other respects, because harshness, no matter how reject it may be at first, is better than unwarranted praise.

    Did I feel qualified to be harsh when I first started in my classes? No, not in the least. I felt like a numbskull in most of my first collage classes after being out of school for several years. But, after enduring and making good grades in strict, harsh teacher's classes, I did feel more qualified to be harsh to others. It is a necessary step for most wannabe writers to go through. The feelings of being inadequate, rejected, and horrible are something almost required of making it to be a writer.

    I've gotten over the worry of hurting a writer's feelings. Their first few critiques should hurt, and if they don't, then they haven't been critiqued correctly. The first few critiques should make you feel like throwing your pen across the room and never trying to write again. But a true writer will endure, get over the pain, and write again. It's survival of the fittest in the writing world. And those who can't hack it, well, they end up writing endlessly in journals that never see the light of day.

    Some of you may feel inadequate now, but you will get over it. Critique to the best of your current ability. If that isn't enough to pass though the lenient requirements of this site, then you need to read more on how to give a proper literature critique. Maybe take a class at your local community college or online...but eventually you'll get over feeling under-qualified to give a critique -- however the process of learning it might be painful. As it should be.
     
  14. Danno

    Danno New Member

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    New member reviews' catch-22

    I stumbled upon your post and after signing up, I see the nature of your problem. WHile I feel as though I can offer substantive reviews, I have no experience with the expectations and standards common at this site. I intend to offer the two required reviews at the most minimal level possible, in order to post the piece i came here for feedback on. Hope that's sufficient to satisfy the requirements.



     
  15. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Danno, te Review Room is a critiquing workshop. Please do not post for comments if you have no intention of participating.

    The purpose is to learn to critique constructively, and thereby learn to find and fix problems in your own writing. It is not a critiquing service.
     
  16. Calrootpeg

    Calrootpeg New Member

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    I think critiquing is often mixed either with the arrogance of superiority, and the meanness of criticism, or, the offer of unbias judgment, and selective praise. Criticism breeds resentments; critique, respect. Say what you might see wrong, but look hard for the things that could be great. Unless your in school. Then it's a whole different set of rules.

    Or so I think. :)
     
  17. Davylove21

    Davylove21 Member

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    I find the problem with critiquing to be that often there are about 5 'critiques' already posted that already say what you would have. And far too often they focus on grammar rather than the impact of setting or something similar.
     
  18. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    When I post things up for review, I don't want people to tell me "Its great!" I want them to tell me that things are wrong. I want them to find flaws. The editors that I will ultimately submit it to will not pull any punches or have concern for my feelings. I don't think that criticism breeds resentment; it breeds better writing.


    If the first 5 focus on grammar and not the impact of things, it sounds like you have plenty of room to still be constructive.
     
  19. bluebell80

    bluebell80 New Member

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    This is why I don't focus on grammar and spelling as much as what works and doesn't work. I focus on things that make up the structure of the piece, the plot, the characters, the dialog...then I make little notes of the confusing stuff, usually as a result of grammar issues, sometimes spelling issues, and sometimes just a lack of paying attention to what has already been written.

    I know sometimes in writing I repete things, or jump ahead, and if I don't go back and reread what I have written it would be confusing to the reader.

    Critiquing is an art form in and of itself. Critiquing involves the critical thinking skills of being a good reader, and having some knowledge of writing methods.

    Most postings in the review room can always have something added that was missed by the other critiquers. Sometimes people post their revised pieces in the same thread and need those critiqued too. So I always look through the whole thread.
     
  20. ManhattanMss

    ManhattanMss New Member

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    I know some reviewers read other reviews before writing their own critique. But, if you don't do that (I usually don't), then where the critiques overlap (or reiterate the same piece of advice or criticism), that can be very helpful to the writer in sorting out the more meaningful issues the story might have from those that simply reflect a particular read or attitude.

    The other thing about open reviews (where everyone reads or can read the others) is that sometimes if a reviewer fails to comment on something just because it's already been mentioned, it minimizes the importance of that particular impression. The opposite is true, too--where readers notice something just because someone else mentions it and maybe "agree" where they might not have in a private, independent review.

    IOW, if lots of folks have the same issues independently, that's more likely to be a critical something-or-other to consider than if only one person has a particular problem. Sometimes the writer doesn't know that in an open review where people don't want to point out the same thing someone else already has. And sometimes he can't tell if the comments are agreeing only for the sake of having something to say where they might not have commented otherwise.

    I think it's complicated for the author any way you cut it. But the spread of observations I see here in this forum certainly seems to supply writers with lots of food for thought. That there are differences in views on various things just suggests places where the writer must investigate for himself in order to use his own best judgement.
     
  21. writewizard

    writewizard New Member

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    On one webpage I go on, I start out by telling individuals what I liked about the story. I rarely rewrite their grammar and speelling for them unless I know what else to say. I leave that for them or someone else.

    If you can't say, "Oh, that doesn't flow right", don't worry about it! Sometimes the best way to go is to say what is right. If you say what is right, and leave out, for example, that you didn't like a certian part, the author should edit it and say, "okay, they didn't say they liked this. So i should fix it."


    Perhaps your best bet is to start off by saying, "Well, I liked this, this and this, but for some reason, this part doesn't feel right, and I think you can change it to something better. Here's how." Or even, "I feel as though you should change this, but I don't know how to show you too."

    Hope this helped
    Writewizard :D
     
  22. KingAJO

    KingAJO New Member

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    ive got to be honest i dont feel qualified to be passing judgement on the work of people that have been writting for many years. give an idea or two maybe but i cant comment on work that is proabably 20 times better than anything i could write.

    i came on the site hoping that with the amount of writers on here that i maybe able to find help with my own work for uni and i find i cant post my work for a review because i have not commented on enough peoples work. ive tried to leave comments where i can but some of these threads are way out of my league.

    i am not complaining about passing comments, that would be selfish i will quite happily pass a comment on something i feel qualified to do so on but i dont think you should be forced to otherwise your heart wont really be in it and you will say anything just so you can get your own work posted
     
  23. ManhattanMss

    ManhattanMss New Member

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    I once felt the same way you feel, till I was told by a published writer that my reader's impressions were more valuable to him than any editor's comments he could easily pay for and get. Having had my own work read by strangers, including those who never even read short fiction (which is what I write), I can tell you that I now understand exactly what he meant. To know where a reader--any reader--loses interest in a story can be a HUGE gift to a writer (even if he can't explain it well). To know where something became confusing or where a reader stumbled over a phrase or word can be a godsend (even if the confusion seems the consequence of short attention span or ignorance). If a story reads like it's beyond comprehension to a given reader, that too is worth knowing to a serious writer (it's up to the author to decide if that opinion matters and who his audience is meant to be). Even to know what a reader likes about a story--whether or not it's what the author meant to be significant--is worth more than the typical feedback anyone can pay for.

    Yes, it takes some courage to reveal your reader's take. And, yes, it takes some skill that one develops--certainly for a writer or a wannabe. But writing (fiction) itself is an act of courage in some way or else it's hardly worth the time to read it. So, if nothing else, you're developing your own courage by entering the fray and coughing up your take.

    Being a writer is something one must simply dare to do and learn to take his failures gracefully and learn from them.
     
  24. MsMyth71

    MsMyth71 New Member

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    I'm late to this, but I have to agree.

    You learn this by doing. I remember sitting in a classroom my first year of undergrad workshop and literally sitting there thinking, "I have no idea what I'm going to say to offer critique." Others in class would bring up one thing and I would look at that and say, "Hmm, ok, they have a point."

    I started by trying to focus on one thing at a time in a story. Maybe that's a good way for you? For example, look at characters in the story. Are they round? Flat? Are there places where they are not convincing? Melodramatic?

    Then next time, look solely at dialogue. Is it believable? Is it overwrought?

    I found that when I focused on one thing for a few stories, I got good at spotting those concerns after a while. Then you move on to something else. :)
     
  25. bachatan

    bachatan New Member

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    how is it going?

    I just recently joined the site, and I too was wondering about giving critique, when I don't consider my self the best writer, and I dont know the correct formats for everything, I do believe though that focusing on what doesn't work is the best way to support another writer.

    I feel you already know what works for you, and having someone honest enough to tell you what doesn't is a favor.

    Trakaias you said "I get nervous about saying why I didn't like it and why because its an opinion"

    well even when you say why you liked something, its still an opinion, everything is an opinion, everything you share depends on how you feel.

    you might like a movie someone else hates or despises, its the same thing here, and even this is just my opinion


     

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