Seat-Of-Your-Pants vs Outlining

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Jon Sikes, Apr 11, 2015.

  1. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    I always saw myself as an outliner but boy that doesn''t mean you can't get stuck. A lot of ideas seem epic until you read them aloud and no worse a feeling that realizing your blue prints don't work.

    Me though I always found that writing helps me discover them. Sort of I design a character. I feel like I personally know them and then I put them though challenges and watch how they handle it. Some times I am surprised.

    One excellent example is a girl named Jackie. I designed her to be semi strong. Nothing to send home about. Then in my mind I kept having her fight other of my characters. She kept winning. It took me a while to get that she was just stronger than I realized. I tried to make her lose but it just seemed like it required me to make her act differently than she was.

    Not sure if that makes any sense. I am a weird cookie or so I have been told.
     
  2. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    I do both. When I have an idea for a novel I plot a bit and do a bit of storyline-ing - very loose though. I'm not interested in knowing everything. I'm only interested in a general idea. In a way it's kinda like taking a generalization and turning it ( through the writing of the story ) into a set of specifics - specific characters specific situations. I think sometimes the opposite can happen when you start with too many specifics it's starts to deteriorate into generalizations. ( This doesn't happen to everyone but I noticed it happened to me. It was a way of putting blinders on during my writing journey. )

    The only problem I've had with derailment is usually do to losing track of character motivation something that can be cleared up and refined in later drafts. ( although when it happens it's damn frustrating. )

    I let characters dictate the way according to their environment, their options and lack thereof. That's why I'm a firm believer in setting and descriptions ( and having them create links to everything ) and not getting ahead of yourself with those details. If I can keep those things fresh and I can pull an idea from something I've recently experienced or took notice of rather than dipping back into month-old notes - when maybe those notes no longer fit.
     
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  3. TheWingedFox

    TheWingedFox Banned

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    The latter. I don't have too much respect for course choices. But popularity for me means it's good in some way.
     
  4. Tesoro

    Tesoro Contributor Contributor

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    Oh, that's how you do? Thanks for explaining. :) That IS actually a good question to ask yourself when the character ends up in a situation. But how do you know what is going to happen in the story if you have no idea what the story is? I guess that is my main question? Does it just appear as you write?
    The reason I got stuck is actually because with this ms I tried to do something inbetween. It's basically a rewrite of an old story, but I had to make huge changes to the plot because the old one didn't work, ( I guess I'm one of those who get stuck on a flimsy plot, to refer to another thread I just read) so I decided to try and write it with just my knowledge of what the story is about, who the characters are and a few milestones along the way, but I don't know the entire plot. Instead I decided to try to work in a different way than usual. And that always put me in the situation sooner or later where I don't know where it will go next. Usually around the middle... (Guess that's why my latest ms turned into a novella, hm... ;) )
    I do plan, but like someone else said, I still get stuck from time to time, and it's not because I don't know what is going to happen but because I become aware that something isn't working in what have already written. It's like a power switch that goes off when there's something wrong with the story. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
  5. Megalith

    Megalith Contributor Contributor

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    I think everyone is an outliner and a pantster. They are like two sides of the same coin. Even if you don't write down your outline, it's rough enough in your mind that you have basic ideas and concepts about where you are headed.(which you may or may not deviate from) And even the person who creates a detailed outline still change many things from it, and decides different directions from the original outline. What you decide to pants, what you decide to outline, How much you do one more than the other...

    I find it effective to pants character background and dialoguea and reactions. Also pantsing descriptions and minor plot points.

    I like to outline major plot points and scenes.(Characters involved, reason for being there, and the final outcome of them being there.) I also like to outline character traits, virtues, motivations, hopes, and character growth.
     
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  6. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    I think that anyone who has done an outline knows what a pantser does - they just don't do it in detail. I mean, when writing your outline, how do you know what should happen next? It's no different for a pantser - they just write it instead of outlining it.


    Not necessarily. Again, every writer does it differently. I think of some character - even just a character type - and some situation that forces them to do something. That's the start of the story, and that's as far as my planning goes. No idea where it's going to go, no idea how it's going to end. Hell, no idea if that character will make it through the first scene. But that's what makes writing fun for me - finding out what's going to happen.
     
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  7. daemon

    daemon Contributor Contributor

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    Has anyone else ever thought of an ending they wanted to write, and then started writing a story just to lead up to that ending? If so, then did that require more planning than your typical story that begins with a premise and lets the characters drive it forward?
     
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  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    In a way, all romance novels are written that way. The end is ALWAYS the couple lives happily ever after, and the variety all comes from throwing obstacles at them and seeing how they handle the obstacles.

    For me, I'd say it's easier to write stories like that. I start with two characters, and idea of the main problem keeping them apart, and the knowledge that by the end of the book that problem will have to be resolved. Then I start filling in the rest.
     
  9. Megalith

    Megalith Contributor Contributor

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    well when I said 'where you are headed' I didn't mean a result of some sort. I meant, a plan for action. So creating a character and the situation that forces them to so something, is the outlining you do. And the rest is pantsing.

    What I'm trying to say is that these terms, 'Panster' and 'Outliner' are more biased then we give them credit for. Even the basic concept of an outline is something you do as you write.(panstsing or not) As you write, all these ideas come to mind and pantsers quickly decide which one to do, and why. You make active decisions about what to write, whether to include an idea or not; all of this is outlining, just at a much quicker, as you go pace, with different motivations behind the style that results from it.

    Yes it does, It depends, because you don't want to have a story with no character drives, so writing with a certain ending requires being extremely creative and makes the process a much slower one. Outlines are restrictions for the panster part of our performance, and give our stories a rigidity that is difficult to overcome. For Fantasy and Sc-Fi with lots of world-building, an outline is strongly suggested. Because that attention to detail means such an ending is already devised through the setting. (Most of the time, Even if you aren't exactly sure what will happen in the end.) The direction is a double-edged sword which restricts you, but gives you a working framework for your creative mind. (If the blank page scares you, outlining is a good counter.)

    So it's a preference of style, results, and motivations that decide how we write and why. There are things that matter to us and things that don't. how much or how little we care about something, in a way, directs where we pants and where we outline.
     
  10. aguywhotypes

    aguywhotypes Active Member

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    The best book that I've ever read about pantsing is Steven James, When Story Trumps Structure.
     
  11. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Ummm - no. I mean, sure, if you want to call "I think I'll use a longshoreman in some kind of fight" a basic outline, just so you can say that writer outlines, fine. But it's such a stretch of the imagination that it's really useless. It's like saying thinking out the next sentence is outlining - and yes, I've seen hardcore outliners say exactly that, and it's ridiculous. I think about what's going on at the moment, and I will consider the possibilities if I do this versus that - but whether any of those actually happens, who knows? I brainstorm and I review so what I write fits with what I've written. But, no, I do not outline. Nada. Zilch. Outlining is a killer for me - I never finished the one story I outlined, the very idea of trying to finish it bores me, and the only way I will probably ever go back to it is by tossing the remainder of the outline and having some fun with it instead. But if it makes people happy to think everyone is, at least, a closet outliner, well, whatever...
     
  12. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    That's funny, because I think this same argument applies to outlining. Like with the saying, "time is like a river," you can say that so too is a character's life. A character's "destiny," is the overall plot and outline of your story. There's going to be small details throughout the story that you're going to want to pants. This is where you will spend LOTS of time editing in multiple drafts, making sure all these little whims of your characters all coalesce into the grand plot. It's like starting with a slab of stone and slowly chiseling away. The minor details that you pants, will ultimately show you what your story was meant to be and what it was meant to do. It's possible that the minor details may make you change other minor details, or maybe you've have to make a few signicant alterations to the story, but the plot, as a whole, lives on.

    What's interesting to me, Jannert, is that you sound to be suggesting the same thing, just in reverse order. First you pants, then you shape(shaping in this case, means looking at the story as a whole, which is basically outlining). Either way, we're gonna have to go back and edit.
     
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  13. Kingtype

    Kingtype Banned Contributor

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    I prefer neither.

    They both work and to be honest you should probably use both at one time or another. My characters do have a life of their own and they certainly can change things if I've set up a narrative but then I'd just adapt to whatever they changed or they would have to adapt to whatever I change.

    Either way you'll have to go back and edit. All depends on the story at the end of the day, three act structure is good and chaos is good.

    Based on my experience some stories require different processes depending who you are.

    Heck at heart its all a combination of the same things to a degree.
     
  14. daemon

    daemon Contributor Contributor

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    You know how when you say/hear/write/read a word enough times, it loses its meaning? That is how I feel about the use of "pants" as a verb now.
     
  15. Jon Sikes

    Jon Sikes New Member

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    This is exactly the kind of statement that "Pantsers", and other folks who have commented here, have made that I don't understand. To say you have "No idea where it's going to go, no idea how it's going to end. Hell, no idea if that character will make it through the first scene. But that's what makes writing fun for me - finding out what's going to happen.", sounds as if you are physically disconnected from the story; as if your story is not something you created, or had any part of, or it exists on it's own by itself. It's like you're John Candy in Delirious or RDJ in Singing Detective.

    H
    ow did you keep your writing from being just a string of non-sequiturs, illogical ramblings, and nonsensical observations? Fiction shouldn't be literary improv.

    Ex: A man walks into a bar. Cheeseburger. She waited in the lobby. A Man is eaten by a T-rex. Bob turned and replied, "We're gonna need a bigger spaceship," as we drove off into the ocean. Albuquerque!

    What logic is used to get from Point A (beginning) to Point B (ending)?
     
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  16. daemon

    daemon Contributor Contributor

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    This is what happens when I force words out of my fingers without knowing where I am going. Finally someone gets it!
     
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  17. Ben414

    Ben414 Contributor Contributor

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    It sounds like you've already made up your mind that people who don't use an outline can't possibly have their structure be guided by a sub conscious thought process. When people are "pantsers" and decide to write x and then y and then z for whatever reasons, those reasons involve structure even though they're expressed in different terms.

    The objective, irrefutable fact is that starting without an outline has worked for writers, including professional writers. Just as you brainstorm different structures and change them before writing, others brainstorm and change their structure as they as writing (including rewriting to ensure coherent structure throughout). To you, it may seem like extra work to write and then have to alter or cut a lot of it when it doesn't produce a coherent structure. To others, it may seem like a way to free up their imagination and allow their sub conscious to direct their structure in ways they wouldn't have thought of by following an outline. People think differently; people write differently.
     
  18. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well there is more than one way to make a sculpture.

    You can take a block of stone, decide to carve an elephant, and start chipping off all the parts of the stone that aren't elephant. OR, you can start with a lump of clay. You can start to make an elephant, but then decide that what you want, instead, is a large cat. So you squash the elephant's feet, and start again. And then the cat can change into a horse—and hey, you can even put a rider on the horse. What you end up with is a stunning sculpture of a man sitting on a horse. Now, if you'd started with a block of stone, you'd have had to stick to carving the elephant, or dumped the whole thing altogether.

    You can also start with a lump of clay, and just poke and prod away at it, until the shape you've spontaneously created reminds you of something ...and then you start refining it so it turns into that 'something.' I know because I've done this, many a time, back in my art student days.

    Making a detailed outline and then changing it in a major way while writing the story is ...ta da...pantsing!
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
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  19. MustWrite

    MustWrite Member

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    I'm a pantser, so I would like to answer one of the points raised in earlier posts. Characters who "take on a life of their own" are of course a product of our imagination, yet they can, by revealing the depth of character our subconscious has gifted them with, change the story/plot we had planned.
    If you had planned to have your character act in a heroic/selfless way but realise the character realy isn't that selfless, in fact you can't write them as doing that without the scene feeling forced, trite and downright rediculous. Hang on, you made up this character, you can make them do anything you dang well please. Well, yes, but it won't be pretty. But if you are brave enough to discover the people your imagination has created in all their complex glory, you can find amazing treasures that, with a bit more work on your plot and re-thinking some of your original ideas you can turn into stories that live on powerfully in the minds of your readers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015
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  20. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Why on earth would you think we're disconnected? My God, if anything we're immersed in it - so involved because we can't wait to see what's going to happen next! I could just as easily say that outliners are just filling in the blanks - and we should all know that isn't true either.

    Uh, because we use that gray matter between the ears?

    The logic of following through on what's already been written, at least for many of us. (Which, incidentally, brings me to comment on this "we all have go back and edit" - not really. I edit as I go, which works hand-in-glove with the logic of following through. Just because one is a pantser doesn't mean they're writing in chaos.)
     
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  21. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    This is close to what I do, but not quite there.

    I start with basically nothing. I have to go out and gather my clay - piles of it. That's the trial scenes I've mentioned before - just gathering material. I assemble a lot of material and I call it a first draft - very fine clay, but a first draft. Then I look at it and see what doesn't belong and I rip it out. What's left is kind of misshapen, but suggests the story I'm trying to tell. It needs some more clay to bridge some gaps, so I go gather more clay and shape it into the gaps. Eventually, I get something done.

    What I mean is, I start by piling up something big - a lot of material - and then I trim it down into a story.

    It seems most writers don't work that way, or at least they don't want to. They start with a schematic diagram and write only that material that fits into the schematic. This is fine, too, but it just doesn't work for me.

    I have a feeling that tomorrow I'm going to reply to @Jon Sikes, who is the antithesis of the way I work. Right now, though, it's about 4:15 in the morning and I need to get some sleep.
     
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  22. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    It's starting to seem like you're being wilfully obtuse on this one. Like you have your version of what pantsers do, and you're clinging to it harder than you should.

    Plotter or pantser, both types of writer start with a character or scenario or idea and then fill in around it using their imagination and their intelligence. Both types of writer figure out logical ways to get from Point A to Point B. They just apply their logic at different stages of the process.

    I mean, your "example" of how you seem to think a pantser writes could just as well apply to a plotter, right? The plotter sits down at a desk and without even knowing all the details of the story he just starts writing down stuff that might happen, with no connection between any of the events, just random stuff about cheeseburgers and T-rexes. But it's in outline form, so that makes it okay?

    No. Neither group of writers makes up random nonsense. They both figure out coherent plots and character interactions and figure out how things connect. They just do this work at different stages of the writing process.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
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  23. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    That did make me laugh! But if you think that's what pantsers do, you're not quite on it. Pantsers start with a more nebulous idea of what the whole will be like, but by the time they finish, their whole will be just as coherent as the person who figures everything out before every writing anything down.

    I'd think of it a bit like a journey. You can start out, intending to go to Albuquerque, and you get out the map, or programme your Sat Nav, and follow the directions to the letter and you get there. OR you can start out with the idea of going to Albuquerque, but there is this wee side road you just passed that looks VERY interesting. And down the road you go. You may well discover stuff that makes you not want to go to Albuquerque at all. Or you may discover another route to get to Albuquerque that is way more interesting. It may take longer to get there on blue highways rather than the motorway, but you will find you've been more entertained by the route, and maybe learned something you hadn't expected.

    That's the beauty of pantsing. Of course if you're strapped for time, and you MUST get to Albuquerque as fast as possible, then the planned route using the motorway is probably best. Or if you're the sort of person who fears getting lost, or hasn't got enough money to stay overnight someplace if the trip takes longer than usual, then you'll stick to the route, even if it's a blue highways route. Nothing wrong with any of these routes. If getting to your planned destination is the most important thing, then you'll preplan the journey. If the journey itself is more important than the destination, you will probably do looser planning and just go where impulse takes you.
     
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  24. Ares Desideratus

    Ares Desideratus Member

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    I don't understand what is so hard to understand about the fact that people can just make shit up on the spot. It's actually very simple.

    It's possible to have no idea what the story is about until you write. This doesn't mean that everything that happens in the story is going to be completely random. You take your first sentence and build upon it from a rational perspective. You follow each part of the story with a second part that fits together with it.

    Even if you outline the entire story, it still came from the universal nowhere of consciousness. The fact that you have to make up the story using nothing but pure imagination goes against any concept of logical outlining or planning in the first place.

    Just look at one of the most prolific and commercially successful authors of all time, Stephen King. (I know some of you hipsters probably think of him as overrated). But IIRC, King never outlined his stories or fully planned them out. Rather, he would take an idea or two, and just start writing. In his own words, "that's not prose, that's an instruction manual."

    Of course outlining can and does work, and it's a wonderful process for creating stories and some writers may find that it suits their style the best, but when you make a story, you are literally just making shit up. From nowhere. No matter how much outlining you did, you still made the shit up, using your imagination, and there is no way to get around this fact that I know of.

    But it's important to remember, every writer's process is different.
     
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  25. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yep. Last story I sold, I had a vague notion about what I wanted and "pants" the whole thing in about four hours. A short story, of course. But it sold in largely first-draft form. I find that for short stories, "pantsing" is pretty easy to do. For longer work, I tend to plan ahead more.
     
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  26. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You seem very invested in proving that you're right and we're wrong. That is a goal that is incompatible with understanding. You're going to need to pick one of those two goals.
     
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