I’ve no idea what your point is chickenfreak, you sound huffy. Who said anyone is clamouring? People usually listen, have conversations, smile and then enquire. It’s a very calm process I assure you. Lol I’m sorry if I sound impolite, but not getting your energy. We are talking beta reading. I don’t give people manuscripts, I share chapters as they’re ready. Why would people not read unpublished stuff? I read based on my interest in a person. You’re sounding quite stuffy to me as well. Where is it that you live where people don’t take an interest in people unless they are published? Come to think it, why are you here?! Is this a place filled with published authors? Oh, I avoid writer’s colonies. I often look for readers and reader groups....you know, the people I think who would be interested in reading and possibly buying? Or are you expecting only writers to buy your books?
Because our spare time is valuable. In America the median amount of books read per year is four and 27% of adults won't read a single book during the year. That's precious little time apportioned for reading. And in my experience—and I imagine the experience of many other unacclaimed, aspiring authors—procuring that time is a challenge. Speaking for myself as a beta reader/reviewer, it's a competition to obtain my feedback. I can only spare so much time reviewing excerpts and short stories on this site. The question is: how do I choose which stories to offer feedback on? In my estimation it's somewhat of a competition mixed in with some luck. I'm genuinely happy you accomplished your goal. I'd love to have three eager, insightful readers who I could rely on, but I don't foresee that coming together anytime soon. The fervent readers in my social circle almost exclusively read romance or John Grisham-esque thrillers, which aren't my genres. Worthy of the attention of enough of your intended audience.
You write fanfic, right? I think it's MUCH easier to get feedback for fanfic, and if you establish relationships in the fanfic community you can often persuade them to help you with original fic as well. It's generally more difficult to get readers without the fanfic connection.
There's another aspect to this topic that's interesting. Beta readers can give you a good idea of who your target audience actually is. You honestly won't know this until you try it out. I'd say go for as big a variety of betas as you can get, and do NOT refuse to allow somebody to read it because you think it won't be the sort of thing they like. By all means DO refuse anybody you think will be automatically disdainful and unhelpful. But say yes to just about everybody else. You'll know from what they tell you afterwards whether they liked what you were trying to do or not. Take it from there. Just don't give your first draft to everybody you know. Save some readers for second, third and subsequent revisions. VERY few betas are going to want to read your story twice, to let you know if your changes were good or not. I'm speaking here from experience as a beta as well as a writer. Give each version to a set of fresh eyes. If they don't see the same problems your first tranche of readers did, then you have probably sorted those particular problems. I have been surprised by the beta readers of my novel. There were a few whom I was convinced would hate it because of the subject matter and tone—and they turned out not only to 'get into it,' but also gave me some of the most thoughtful and helpful feedback I received. A few others, whom I had assumed beforehand would be my target audience, actually weren't. It revised my way of thinking about how my story hits people, and also how I might market it.
Well, I’m glad I didn’t get an offended response. I was just discussing this with my husband a moment ago. He raised a good point as he’s aware of my habits, his words were: “You cultivate relationships.” That’s me. I go out and look to meet people first and foremost. My writing is just part of who I am, but it’s really about giving me a reason to meet people. I justify it as ‘research’. Writing as an interest has actually opened a lot of doors for me socially and professionally. So I’m quite chilled about it, I’ve already felt rewarded. As I discussed with someone on another forum, I’d happily lock my story away in paid content on Patreon. I’m protective of my babies, I’d like only eyes on it by people who want to read. So I will patiently wait for the right reader to share. I’m self-indulgent though. Writing is not my livelihood like some authors here. I’ve also have had enough feedback to know I’m good but not great. I’m cool with that for now. It’s never a competition for my time, because I don’t give it out freely. Even if I’m tired, I will make the time to read if I care. That’s at my own expense and I will do it out of love of the writer, who would be a friend. I don’t beta read for non-friends, I ocasionally do short critique in the spirit of community. But we’re all at different stages of our writing journey. As for you not having the eager readers that you want, I guess my long-winded points above is that you need to go outside your circle and explore. If I relied on my immediate circle, I’d be very bored and struggling too. Just from reading your last response, I’m sure you will be fine. I feel it’s about attitude. I get curious because the author interests me.
I'm having trouble reconciling: with: Can you elaborate? Are these beta readers you find based on relationships? If so, why do you consider yourself unpopular?
Hey Bayview, I’m confused. What makes you think I write fan fic? I’ve never attempted one and I’m not even sure what a fan fic is exactly. I just use the word to mean a story based on a known story world. Although, I plan to do a Dune Comedy Fan fic / skit..whatever you call it once I finish the darn book. This is just something I’ve planned to do with my new reading partner for fun. He’s a Dune fan and kindly re-reading to keep me company. This is LinnyV, which you may or may not remember. I am the romance addict, so it’s a Science Fantasy adventure romance I’m writing . No fan fic involved, my world is based of Ancient Egypt.
I just read about the Dune fanfic, and assumed it wasn't a new thing. But if it is, then... I guess you don't write fanfic!
Yes, I’m a bit of a contradiction. I’m an introvert with extroverted tendencies? I do one-on-one relationships very well. I’m a consultant, my role is to be a trusted advisor to my clients. So one to one, I’m very good. One to few, I’m okay. One to many I’m not so good. I love to help people though. I chose a client facing career after all. But privately, I’m anti-popularity and anti-social media. Social media is a neccesity and an addiction. And you might or might not notice, but I’m not wealthy on diplomacy. I’m pretty certain I’m rarely on the side of popular opinion here over the years I’ve dropped by. I’m someone who will have a few real followers who love me, but the majority that don’t care for me. I have had readers actually say on forums when I posted online for a time, “Your story is good, I don’t know why you aren’t more popular.” I guess I am just an unpopular person. Over the years I have had a lot of close friends that is essentially a chain of relationships. I move from community to community a lot. In my current platform, I am interested in a handful of people for different reasons online. I invest a lot of my time and love in these people because they treat me well and interest me. They are either beta readers, character studies, or are important for my sanity, I need to vent a lot. I actually spend a lot of my time online entertaining these people, so my ‘stories’ are just an extension of my entertainment.
Okay, I think I wrote enough! I really need to leave again. I like to pop in here when I am a little weary and be surrounded by writery types. It’s a secret resting place! Cya!
You're the one suggesting that a lack of eager beta readers suggests a flaw in the writing. That's a fairly offensive assumption, especially given that it's groundless.
Well, I don't find the assumption offensive , but I do agree with you. A lack of eager beta readers can't be due to a flaw in the writing if the betas haven't read the piece. (Unless they've tried to read other stuff the same person has written before—which is a good reason to make it readable before you start handing it out to people.) A lack of beta readers can range from being isolated from people in general, to having no friends who like to read, or having friends who are worried about giving a reaction, or not sure of their ability to give a reaction ...to a person simply not having time to read and give feedback. In general, I reckon if a new writer lets it be known that they've written a novel, there are usually people they know who will say they want to read it. It will turn out that some of them actually do read it, while others won't. But it's a good start, and it doesn't put anybody on the spot. Another way to get quality betas is to offer a beta swap with another writer ...one on this forum, perhaps?
Look, I try not to go into every scenario, because that would be tedious and time consuming. I have only so much time I allow myself to spend on these forums, but I’m sentimental of WF. Please note, my exact wording was: I never defined what the flaw was. It would be right to assume it could be related to writing, but that’s not the only thing. Communication via posts and level of sincerity and thoughtfulness in engagement are important to me. In any case, I work hard to find connections across a range of communities and interests. It’s served me well, I’m always learning stuff a boring IT consultant would not know otherwise. So if people are struggling, it’s because they are doing something wrong and need to figure out what it is. It could be as simple as their writing is bad or their ideas a boring, or that people make these assumptions by their less than riveting persona. All I know is if that if you have made a genuine effort and have only felt a lukewarm response to your work, there are problems. You consider that opinion groundless? Well, good for you.
But in this thread, you're being really pretty rude. So that doesn't sound like an accurate self-assessment.
There is a difference between a lukewarm response to your work itself—meaning the person has read the piece and doesn't like it very much—and struggling to find somebody to read it in the first place. You can't blame bad writing for a lukewarm response, if no betas have seen the writing yet. If that is the problem, then I suggest the writer enlarge his or her circle of writing acquaintances. Either here on the forum, or join a local group, or arrange some swaps, etc. If you're not fortunate enough to have friends who like to read, or friends who are willing to read and give feedback, that's not your fault. Nor will improving your standard of writing change the situation. Even if you're a horrible person or a shy person who has no friends at all because of your personality, then that also has nothing to do with your writing standard. I think it's wrong to assume that if somebody struggles to find a beta, that means they are probably bad writers. That's a discouraging tack to take, isn't it? Instead, encourage people to find betas elsewhere. If a beta does read your stuff and gives you a lukewarm response, that's a different issue. Unless they are personally 'out to get you,' it probably means your writing could be improved.
I am certainly abrasive and have less patience here, I respond to the energy of a forum. I’m very sweet elsewhere, of course, that’s a groundless claim unless you have witnessed it. I’ve nothing to prove to you. I express an opinion and sometimes I sugar coat it and sometimes I don’t. It depends on the audience and subject matter. I always try to be reasonable and some people appreciate it. You don’t need to like my answer and you can think what you want. You’re again making it about only the writing. If you read my reponses closely, you might get it that I’m saying, get off your ass, stop whinging on forums about no betas, and go work for it? And if after all that hard work, you are still hearing crickets...Problems. Sorry, if this comes across rude Jannert, I know you’re a kind soul. So please don’t read it as such. I am at work...
I think that you may be under the false impression that you are demonstrating far more courtesy and reasonableness than you actually are. Or you're saying that you entertain yourself by being rude on this forum, in a troll-like manner. I'm not clear which it is.
I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying there is a difference between having no betas available to read your stuff, and having betas who HAVE read your stuff give you a lukewarm response to it. Having no betas at all is definitely a problem, but it's not (necessarily) a problem with your writing. How can it be a problem with your writing if nobody has read it yet? I actually said: I believe that's more or less what you were suggesting, that you should 'get off your ass, stop whinging on forums about no betas, and go work for it.' I just phrased it ...differently.
Awww @Solar thanks for the smile. Hehe. I raced here when I got the alert you replied, curious. You don’t comment enough and I’m always interested in your opinions. I guess when here, it’s often not worth the time-suck having to deal with the huffiness. You take care and I’ll PM you.
I'm far from the most popular member on this forum, but I do have a handful of people here who will read and critique my writing and I'll do the same for them. I think we have a little sub-group going on. We sort of got to know each other from posts on the forum and then started reading each other's work. I value there opinions and feel I can trust these members. When something is off in my writing or needs to be cut, I know at this point they're usually right which isn't the easiest thing to admit, and I think it takes some time to really accept negative feedback and know where it's coming from. I have tons of real life writing friends from school since that's what I studied. But I've come to rely more on my friends here. It didn't happen instantly, but I am grateful for their friendship and feedback. I do believe they know what they're talking about. It's not a blind trust, but when they point something out they do so in a way that makes a lot of sense. That's a very valuable thing regardless of your target audience. I think a writer has to reach a certain level or maybe has to receive a certain amount of feedback to know what will work and what won't. An easy way to get feedback is to take a class. I've taken a million of them both in real life and online. You can find them for both short works and novels. Some of these classes you have to apply for with a writing sample and are selective. The feedback you get from those classes comes from more experienced writers. I think that can make it easier to digest, but it doesn't always mean it's better. Some of the best feedback I received was from an online writing course for beginner writers. I feel like that course taught me how to write fiction and did the same for my online classmates. I did research the instructors and picked a class with an instructor who I admired for his works. It wasn't cheep, but I didn't really know where to get the kind of feedback I really wanted or needed. And I will say it was worth every penny since it really put me on the right track.
No, I dont think so. They can give you feedback of what they would like, but do they really know what is best for your writing if they have never written before? They may enjoy reading/listening to them but how much do they really know about the subject. As a Graphic Designer, im constantly asking for critiques of my work, but when i ask other people outside of the office of designers, the feedback can be useful but sometimes its not the best because they dont know the basic rules of graphic design
