So, theme, what is it?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Wayjor Frippery, May 15, 2016.

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  1. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Too much focus on theme is certainly a little annoying.
     
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  2. Tea@3

    Tea@3 Senior Member

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    :meh:
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
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  3. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    That is not a theme. You must be able to verbalize the theme as a statement, or it's meaningless. "The written word enriches our lives, and without it we are pawns to be controlled." Would be a theme of Fahrenheit 451

    Other notes:
    While you may not know your theme in your first draft, you need to know it by your second or third. If you don't know your theme you are not writing a novel, you are writing a chain of events following a perspective.

    Yes, you have a theme. Every novel has a theme. You may not know what you are trying to say (and that's a bad thing) but you cannot help but say something.
     
  4. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    I disagree with how you seem to be defining theme but I agree you should know what the feelings and thoughts your going for are and to control that.
     
  5. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Not me. That's from Stephen King.
     
  6. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    If you go to the link the themes are elaborated on. I didn't want to quote the long paragraphs given the point wasn't about the themes in F451, it was if people were interested in learning about themes, perusing Sparknotes is a useful exercise.
     
  7. Alex R. Encomienda

    Alex R. Encomienda Contributor Contributor

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    The sense of themes get a little twisty with my WIP because I've taken references from my previous short stories and incorporated them into my current WIP. I don't expect anyone to "get" the recurring themes and references but you can't always dumb things down for readers.
     
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  8. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    A theme and a reference are not the same thing. If no one "gets" your theme, you are writing a bad story, and that's not the reader's fault.

    Please see this thread for a theme that no one "gets".
    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/a-bunch-of-people-read-the-tale-of-onora.145313/
     
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  9. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Surely people will pick inter-book references. But I have to say you should probably make a major element clear to them to a large degree, while you can get away with some cryptic-ness.
     
  10. Alex R. Encomienda

    Alex R. Encomienda Contributor Contributor

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    Well my story has many themes or "patterns" that seem to shape it more into a giant tragedy. It's hard to say but I guess it'll have to be "evil prevails."

    There's ups and downs for my protagonists (POV's) but there's a pattern that concludes with good people always losing and evil people always winning. At least that's what it seems to me because I'm still on my first draft.
     
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  11. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    This post here
    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/one-person-probably-reads-the-girl-with-the-solar-eyes.146073/page-2#post-1449189
    goes into a particularly incompetent use of theme, and how it figures into the worst novel I've ever read. If you can read past the snark, and get to the Thoughts section there's a lot in there to dissect. I'm afraid that the whole point is spread out over several posts. I might try to consolidate my thoughts in a journal entry or something.

    Just for now, I want you to notice the similarities between what Saccoccio is saying, and what you are, and be very cognizant of how that looks. Both to us and to your readers.

    That aside, don't worry about theme now. Back to King: Your first draft is for events. Your second draft is for theme and symbol.
     
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  12. Mumble Bee

    Mumble Bee Keep writing. Contributor

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    Stephen King is a great role model but no ones perfect.

    I've seen Maximum Overdrive...
     
  13. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Name a living author who has sold more copies over his career. Hell, even name an author with more movie adaptations.

    Whatever else you think about his coked up directing attempt, the man knows how to fucking write.
     
  14. Mumble Bee

    Mumble Bee Keep writing. Contributor

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    R. L. Stine has sold more copies.
    Okay author with more movie adaptations... Yeah, you got me on this one.

    I'm not saying he can't write, i just want to warn people away from taking an authors personal rule as law.

    Alright, i'm completely full of shit, i didn't care about any of this. I've just seen that you make a habit of eviscerating authors, wanted to see if it was easy to push your buttons or if they really deserve it.
     
  15. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    But R. L. Stine hasn't written a book about writing books. It would be interesting to know what he would say if he did.
     
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  16. Tea@3

    Tea@3 Senior Member

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    :meh:
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
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  17. plothog

    plothog Contributor Contributor

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    Hmm. I'm not sure about that Hemmingway quote. - somehow it doesn't ring true.
     
  18. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    :D:D
     
  19. Alex R. Encomienda

    Alex R. Encomienda Contributor Contributor

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    So instead of using figurative speech, complex narrative and creative description, one must simply write plainly? Wouldn't that be a bit boring?

    I understand what Saccoccio did wrong because it seemed like he was trying to emphasize everything or dramatize everything but don't books need some of that?
     
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  20. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    There are a lot of options between "write plainly" and "write like Saccoccio."

    A lot.
     
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  21. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    Agree with @Robert Musil . My WIP has a distinct theme, but I didn't recognize it until the end... it is agape love, that love that will cause you to take a bullet or jump on a hand grenade for someone else, maybe even for someone you are not close to, or don't like. It is a totally non-emotional love, because it is a rational choice of pain over pleasure, and it is totally non-sexual... soldiers in combat understand this love, though they might not call it love. All of my characters experienced this love, and that love, disguised as duty and honor, formed the central crisis of the story.

    But if I had tried to write that as the intended theme from the outset, I think it would have been soppy sentimental.
     
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  22. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well, that just comes down to implementation. And really, what we're talking is the difference between an unarticulated feeling and bunch of concepts, and a neat line to describe all that. I think you should try to word what your going for while you write so that you know what it is you need to evoke out of evocative elements. And because you should understand your own story, shouldn't you? What is it about it that's appealing, and interesting, and thought-provoking and where does this go in terms of ideas and feelings are questions IMO you should be asking before the second draft.
     
  23. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    I don't think this is necessarily true. This seems to be a facet of the old gardeners vs. architects debate, and as always there isn't really one right answer. So you could start with a well-defined theme in mind, or you could start with one or more premises/settings/characters/whatever and let the theme develop organically as you write out the narrative. But either way, at the end of the day you still won't have control over what the reader gets out of it. What if the reader sees a theme you didn't intend? Is it still a theme? How can we tell the dancer from the dance, etc.
     
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  24. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    I agree with Robert. The idea of defining my theme before I have told the story is foreign to pantsers like me, and the idea of not doing it in advance is foreign to a planner. But with 800 pages done, finished and on the fifth revision, with a happy and enthusiastic editor and about 25 beta readers... works for me!
     
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  25. Tea@3

    Tea@3 Senior Member

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    :meh:
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016

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