Some questions for the LGBTQ community

Ah....

In the words of the ever excellent Indigo Girls:

There's more than one answer to these questions pointing me in a crooked line.
And the less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine.

 

Heh. I remember buying that CD when it was released.

 

1.) How wold were you when you discovered you liked the same sex more than the opposite?

I think I was like four years old or something, I remember 'messing around' with my neighbour.

2.) Did it freak you out or did you accept it right away?

When I entered adolescence I assumed it was a normal thing, I had no concept of homosexuality or bisexuality (the latter of which, I am). When I hit 17 and graduated high school is when I found out it wasn't normal, and I went to great lengths to convince myself it was just a phase.

3.) Did you worry about your parents (I/E my MC grew up in a very Christian household, so she was always taught the abomination of same sex relations)

I haven't told them, even though they are very liberal and my mom has a sister who is a lesbian, which doesn't matter to her.

4.) Did you ever just try to smash your feelings down and " play it straight" to please your parents/others and hide your sexuality?

To please others? No. I do it because I haven't come out to anyone but a few people, and I no longer feel the need to tell people.

5,) (Related to above) Would you ever have married a person of the opposite sex, just to hide your orientation?

Definitely not, I'd just remain single. I put others before myself, I wouldn't enter a marriage knowing I wouldn't be happy - it would just ruin the other person down the road.

6.) How did you "come out" and how did the people around you react?

I showed my friend a picture of two people - one a girl, and one a guy. I said "this is the person I like", she naturally assumed I was talking about the girl. So I showed her another picture with just the guy; her reaction was priceless, we still laugh about it from time to time. She thought it was cool though, I don't know why.

7.) How does the attraction work? Some people have claimed females are gay by choice for sexual or other reasons. Personally I don't believe this is true, but it's been the source of a debate with one of my friends who claims this: Because my secondary protag was highly abused by her father as a child, and her best friend (female) was always there for her to comfort her, etc.. it's only natural she would start disliking men and prefer women instead.

That isn't really a choice though, that's a condition which occurs, whether your protag wanted it to or not.

 

I don't recall being surprised when my friend came out, but this reminds me of the fun he had doing it.

Because she was your friend seems obvious.

 

Interesting that in two pages of this thread, no one has addressed the "T" in LGBT - Transgendered. The OP's questions really only address Gay/Lesbian issues.

But I mention it because a couple of weeks ago, within the space of a few days, I read of two separate incidents in which transgendered women were beaten to death - one down in Jamaica and one here in New York. Transgendered people are, I believe, still the most vehemently harassed, attacked and discriminated against. They remain audience cannon fodder for the less reputable talk shows and the butts of cheap laughs in locker-room humor.

 

There can be no doubt, Ed. This is a sad truth. I know plenty of gay people who draw a line between us (LGB) and them (T). And yes, the phenomenon of T is different than that of L or G or B, but it's as wrong for us to draw an arbitrary line separating them away, as it is for some people in the str8 community who draw a similar line, just in a different place. In fact, it's worse, because we know what it is to be seen and thought of as them. Just the other day on my favorite cooking show, Chopped, there was a transgender chef competing, Chris Trapani. I was struck by how awesome that was.

 

Your friend's assumption is wrong, in my opinion. Sexuality is not a choice, it's biological, or possibly epigenetic.

 

It wasn't on purpose on my part, I don't know any Ts that I'm aware of, except in the news and other sources. I know lots of gay men and a couple lesbians.

 

As a bisexual I have been "harassed" by straights, gays, and transgendered. It's not a competition, we're all harassed equally. I'm told by gays that I need to accept that I'm gay (I'm not); I've been told by transgendered people that I'm not actually bisexual, I just don't know if I'm a girl or a guy (I do, and I'm a guy).

 

I didn't address T issues mainly because my story doesn't deal with that aspect of life. My story is one lesbian woman and her partner and mainly focuses on just those two.

 

Oh, I just remembered, I do know a T. Really nice guy who's now a woman, I think, I haven't seen him since the change. He was a very muscular police officer, always had a smile on his face. I didn't know him well, more like a work acquaintance. I heard he had made the change from some other people that know him better. So it still comes down to not really knowing much about any Ts except it was surprising he was so muscular.

 

One of the biggest problems transgendered people face is the lack of understanding of the difference between gender identity and sexuality. They are two very different things.

 

It is much harder to be transgendered than it is to simply be gay. Especially for children -- there are biological components that need to be addressed by the medical professionals, which requires a parent's acceptance. If someone who was born a boy, for example, is gay -- as hard as it is, if his parents are not accepting, he can hide it from them, and kind of live a "secret" life. He'll be a gay man no matter what the parents do, and he may be able to find supportive people outside the family who can fully support and accept him. I'm not saying this is a good situation -- it is terrible and can be devastating to not have the support of one's family. But, if that same boy were transgendered, and not gay, puberty would be particularly devastating. If the parents will not accept the fact that the boy really identifies as a girl, and will therefore not seek or allow medical assistance, then there is nothing the boy can do until she turns 18. Combined with the fact that society is much more willing to accept someone as gay than they are as transgendered (not that we're where we need to be yet, as far as accepting gay folks), being transgendered is a much more dangerous and much more difficult road.

 

I do have to say it took me a while to realise being gay is normal (raised to think it wasn't ok), but I haven't got my head wrapped around the Ts yet. And I never know how to refer to them, as in, do I use "he" or "she" or what, gender neutral "they"? Essentially, homosexuality is talked about, but transgender is never really talked about, at least not that I've noticed.

I know it's a little off-topic but I actually wouldn't mind if someone had an article or video about being transgendered.

 

My friend's son is transgendered. I'll ask her if there are any videos or articles she particularly recommends.

 

I've never been clear on this: When you say "son," do you mean he was born male and identifies as female, or he was born female and identifies as male? Does it matter if he hasn't had any medical sex-reassignment procedures?

English is ill-equipped to handle transgender people!

 

I probably misspoke -- I should have said "daughter." The child was born male but identifies as female. She is now her daughter, but I still sometimes think of her as her son. My bad.

 

Only Bahasa Indonesia, the language of Indonesia, handles the concept with any ease. The language is functionally genderless with biological gender indicated by a particle added to pronouns. Different to how it works in nearly all I.E. languages where gender finds grammatical life in the 3rd person and sometimes in the 1st person, but not in any of the other grammatical people, in Indonesian, the particle can be added to any pronoun. It's usually obviated unless there is a need to specify. It makes their pronouns more akin to saying this person, that person, those people, we people, etc.

 

I sent a note to my friend and this is her response:

Hope that's helpful.

 

Thanks Liz, yes it's insightful. Just from that simple and short message, I sense a lot of hurt. As I read it, I could almost hear her sigh, not sure why. I'll be checking out the info she gave. Tell her thanks. I guess personally I'd have an easier time accepting someone if I already knew them as the gender that they identity as (e.g. whatever you introduce yourself to me as first, basically).

I still remember I heard of this trans person - never met her myself, she was a friend of a friend - and she was a he originally, Charlie, I think was her name, and then over the summer hols he came back as a woman and adopted a new name. I remember I asked my friend, why didn't she simply name herself Charlotte, which is a easier transition? And my friend said that she wanted nothing to do with her past. I didn't ask anymore questions, and I remember - this was before the time I accepted even homosexuality as normal - I remember thinking to myself, "Should I refer to them as a he or a she?" and thinking to myself, well if it's "wrong" to change your gender, then surely I should insist on calling that person according to well, the genitalia that they were born with. And then I remember feeling, more than thinking, that it'd be just as wrong to insist. I bristle whenever someone insists that I'm Chinese, not English - or that I'm British, not Chinese - or simply that since I'm from Hong Kong, I must be actually from China. I hate it, it's offensive. I know who I am and what I am. And then I thought about trans people and wonder, well, you get where I'm going I'm sure.

Mind you though, by identifying as a "transgender" person (transexual?), aren't they in a way, excluding themselves? What I mean is, is the term "trans" even helpful? Of course now I'm assuming everyone must fall into either male or female, though I have a vague suspicion that there're others out there who feel to have no gender or simply have not yet figured out which one they are. Surely if you're a girl inside, then well, you're just a normal girl - saying you're trans, doesn't that make you something else, somehow different from a normal girl?

Just musings... Like I say, I know nothing about Ts.

 

Glad it was helpful. The only thought that strikes me is, who is to say what "normal" even is? I mean, what's a "normal girl?" To use your example, a girl of Chinese descent, presumably you're still a "normal girl," but in addition to having things in common with girls of all ethnicities, you might feel a certain kinship with other girls of Chinese descent who live in Britain? Certainly being a trans girl presents some unique issues -- different from non-trans girls. So, although in many ways trans-girls would identify with other girls in terms of interests, etc. (the same as any other 2 girls), there are still issues and problems faced only by them. (Especially the hostility and discrimination they encounter.)

I'm certainly no expert and people who actually are trans would be able to give much more insight.

 

By "normal", I mean well - that as a girl they're no different to other girls. They may face some unique issues and identify more with people who've faced the same, but that's not to say they're "different" from anyone else. Something like that. Of course, there're also those who would be offended if you tried to nullify their differences - but different doesn't mean "not normal" in my eyes.

Actually I don't identify with Chinese girls who grew up in England, because they're often more Chinese than me - their parents are more traditional than mine, mine were very liberal. Most Chinese parents want their kids to carry on in Chinese schools beside English schools. Mine never did - I just dropped Chinese altogether. As it is, I identify most with people who're simply opened to try new things - opened enough to accept the unique little things that I have to offer that's not western at all, quirky enough to have their own unique little things that always surprise and delight me, people who realise these differences do not matter in the end and we're still friends, but that the differences matter enough that you simply MUST be open to at least allow the person to share these foreign and sometimes bewildering things with you. These types are usually found in those who've either travelled or in fact grew up with two or more cultures. In my life, although this is speaking specifically of cultural identity and not gender/sexual identity, I've found labels to be highly unhelpful. I do not want to be identified as a "foreigner" or "immigrant", likewise I've come to accept I'll never fully be "Chinese" or "English", though by blood I shall always be Chinese and by culture - body language, daily habits, some lines of thinking - about 99% English, yet my mind is neither because I do not adhere strictly to either culture.

This is of course a whole different struggle than what Ts go through, and I do not live with the same stigma (well, a minor kind of stigma. I've come across racism enough times to no longer be surprised when a stranger swears at me out of the blue in the middle of town), nor would I ever face rejection from my parents whichever country I identify with, so I know it's not comparable. However, I have found myself increasingly uncomfortable with any sort of name or label, and I wonder if Ts might feel similar. Do they wanna identify as trans, regardless of the fact that they've had to "switch" and go through a whole host of emotional, mental and spiritual traumas and scars? If there was no term for trans and we simply accepted it as a fact of life that they were born in the wrong bodies (apologies if this is an offensive way of putting it) and just take them as they are without any need for a name? However I have found that we want names - we find comfort in names because they somehow define we who are and we no longer need to be so confused - in that sense I can see the term trans as helpful. (I spent a good 10 years struggling to find which "name" fitted me, personally - to this day I still don't have one and I'm beginning to think I should stop trying - it's unsettling to go without a name to define what it is you are, but equally it could be liberating) But at the same time, aren't we then saying they're not as they should've been? After all, we have no term for people who do not struggle with their gender identity.

Somehow I feel there's a stigma in the term "trans" - but if a person simply called themselves a man or a woman, regardless of their physical bodies, I can understand that much easier. Not sure why.

 

1) I think because, as mentioned by the young trans person from whom this information so generously came, trans people often take the route of Occam's Razor and assume they are just gay. Later in the process of self identification, they come to know that the matter is more profound for them, that it has to do with who they know themselves to be in their mind, in the way they experience the world. They realize that what they are experiencing just isn't the same as what their gay friends are experiencing. By this point they have already become part of our community, individually, and paradigmatically. They are our friends, we love them, and in our differences we find sameness.

2) Sometimes those within a group are not the masters of the borders of that group. People outside of the community often have difficulty understanding even simple gayness. Is it any wonder that gender identity, even more difficult for some to understand, gets all lumped together as "Those different people... over there. Them." Labels get created and "defined", used and misused, usually by those who don't even belong or have connections to the community, obfuscating the matter even further. Had I been there on coining day, I'ld've smacked the taste out of the mouth of whomever coined homosexual, heterosexual, and homophobia. A more misleading little triumvirate of words has never existed. The first two make it all about matters below the belt, and the last one is flat-out wrong. It should be homomysony.

 

There is certainly that.

I don't mind that there are words for sexual orientation, just when people pretend that there aren't also words for separate romantic orientation. I am asexual+aromantic, most people are heterosexual+heteroromantic, some people are bisexual+homoromantic, some are asexual-biromantic...

However, when people claim that "Heterosexuals and bisexuals are magically always heteroromantic vs. homosexuals are magically always aromantic" (or, if they don't like big words, "Straight couples make love, gay couples f***"), then we get in to propoganda like "Homosexuality is a choice*" or "Homosexuals are pedophiles**," or anything else like that.

(Of course, when they're not talking about gays, these also tend to be the people who think "Women are supposed to be asexual-heteroromantic, men are supposed to be heterosexual-aromantic," and people who don't nit-pick at language the way we are don't tend to notice when they're changing their story like that.)

*Thanks for sharing the "When did you first realize you were heterosexual?" video, chicagoliz!
**90% of pedophiles are straight guys, despite them only being 45% of the general population

The third term on the other hand, focusing on an imaginary fear over a factual hatred, isn't incomplete like the first two, it is just completely wrong. Personally, I would rename it heterosupremacist, though you're right that homomysony could also work.