[SPOILER] DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE FORCE AWAKENS!!

Discussion in 'Entertainment' started by Jack Asher, Dec 19, 2015.

  1. SamHammarberg

    SamHammarberg New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2015
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    I get it, deep characters are great and all, but certainly there's some way to make characters deep without sacrificing the intimidating factor of the villain? Perhaps, I don't know, start with your protagonists instead?
    As for everything else, just compare Vader to Kylo Ren. They have the same struggle between loyalty to family and loyalty to the dark side, which according to you is 'depth', only they slowly built up Vader's doubt for the viewers, while Ren's is shoved in our faces, down our throats and out our asses, only to loop around again in an attempt to make us feel sorry for the kid.

    Oh, and Star Wars was never about depth. If you want one-dimensional, check the original trilogy out. It's far better than the garbage that LotR is.

    Any good writer knows full well that how characters look is an essential part of their design, especially in a movie, where viewers judge them the very first second they see them.
     
  2. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,545
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    Denver
    SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!!
     
    Nicoel likes this.
  3. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,545
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    Denver
    No. No they don't know that. I don't recall any books in which the physical appearance of a character was held up as even a necessary part of their design. Palahniuk has novels where he never describes a single character.

    And in a movie the appearance of a character is up to the casting director, the writer has little to nothing to do with that. So a screenwriter could actually say it's essential that he not describe the character because so much might change.

    Not that complaining that the antagonist has curly hair is any less ridiculous just because you said some more ridiculous things. I don't want to loose sight of that here.
     
    Steerpike likes this.
  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    There are a number of books where characters have little to no description. It isn't always necessary (if ever).
     
  5. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    Here's what I'm confused about. How exactly could Star Wars be bad? I actually was fine with the second trilogy. There's nothing very profound or intelligent about star wars, either in story or dialogue. There are no Oscar winners in Star Wars, either. The only actor in Star Wars who ever mattered was Harrison Ford, who I would almost consider to be a fluke. So, as long as you have John Williams taking care of the score, strong use of special effects, which includes your light sabers, space ships, and multiple planets, you pretty much have a strong Star Wars film. From the reviews, it looks like Disney wasn't able to find any relatives who could replicate Harrison Ford's old charm, but other than that, I'd like to think that those who were unimpressed by Star Wars, have, like me, simply outgrown Star Wars.
     
  6. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,545
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    Denver
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alec_Guinness

    Edited to add:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Earl_Jones
     
  7. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    ....?

    I see this as so not-true that I'm not sure if your statement above is serious or sarcastic.
     
  9. Void

    Void Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2014
    Messages:
    302
    Likes Received:
    231
    While he might have phrased it badly by bringing writers into it, as far as movies, comics, video games or any other visual medium is concerned, then yes, character design does matter. Maybe not to the people writing it, but it is an important factor that needs to be considered.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As far as the film goes, since I just finished watching it and am thankfully now immune to Star Wars spoilers, I think it pretty much met my expectations. That is to say, it was just as good as I expected, it was just as safe as I expected, and the pointless fan-service was just as unnecessary as I expected.
    As a lot of other people on the internet have said, it's certainly one of the more humorous and charming of the Star Wars, but the plot feels strangely messy for such a simple story. There are far too many coincidences that will inevitably be handwaved as "the will of the force". Seriously, that character just so happens to have Luke's lightsaber. I know they'll probably have some reason, but really, she just so happens to find the lightsaber minutes before the empire shows up? And what was up R2-D2 having the map all along? I don't care if they blatantly and clumsily foreshadow it earlier, it just felt like a cop out. Even with that other piece of the map missing, the sheer amount of map that R2 has seems like it would be enough to at least give them a pretty good lead, if not outright reveal it (they were attempting to match that small part of the map using their data). Even with it crudely foreshadowed, plot-wise, it still feels like it comes out of no-where and has seemingly no catalyst other than the need for a cliff hanger.

    Oh, and what's up with the new force powers? I've never been much of a Star Wars fan, so I haven't engaged in any of the EU (which is apparently no-canon now anyway), but why does Kylo Ren have the power to read minds but Darth Vader didn't? The interrogation of Leia at the beginning of SW4 was a pretty major plot point, and it seems like Darth Vader would have used that ability if he had it, which he probably should since he's older, stronger and better trained with the force. Just seems kind of strange, especially since Kylo is (somehow) weak enough to be beaten by Rey, which is another plot point I'm not willing to let pass without further inspection. How does she beat him, and why? In terms of the why, it just seems to devalue their major villain, especially since he seems rather whiny with his tantrums. I know he's more of a Darth Vader analog and we still have the Snoke as the Emperor analog, but still, he kind of comes off as a joke now. As for the how, she's clearly strong with the force and is seen using a melee weapon earlier, but to beat the major villain this early in the trilogy, and with no training at all, now that's rather strange.

    Still, it was a fun space adventure film, which is all Star Wars has ever really been.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
  10. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,023
    Likes Received:
    9,676
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    As @Acanthophis said, Finn was trained from birth on how to fight. No doubt he would've learned how to use the light-saber deflecting batons during his training. So when he picked up the lightsaber, he likely thought, OK, this is just like the batons you used to train with, only bigger and it's got a beam on the end...

    It's easy for a soldier to adapt to new weapons when they have trained with similar weapons and can apply outside-the-box thinking.

    To be fair, Kylo is basically fighting his own parents and everything they stand for. I'd like to see you do that without getting teary-eyed and angry.

    Furthermore, just because his parents are Han and Leia doesn't mean he automatically has their wit and charm.

    At least he actually looks scary.Voldemort just looked like a really, really pale guy with no nose. I used to joke that he looked like Krillin from Dragonball Z if he turned to the Dark Side and trained with a wand.

    But you're right about the name, though. Snokes? I...sorry, I can't take him seriously with that name. It's like me creating a villain, building him to be this fearsome, invisible icon of terror and holyshitwe'rescrewed but his name is Lord Dorgob II.

    Sorry, but I can't take the guy seriously if his name is friggin' Snokes. :p

    Lucas based Palpatine's Empire off of the Nazis in a lot of ways. Kylo wants to model himself and his group off of Vader. Not surprised he's going the whole route.

    OK, you've got a point here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
  11. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,545
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    Denver
    Jedi have always had a certain ability to read minds. You'll remember little Anakin in Phantom reading Mace Windu's mind to see the pictures on his little screen. In Hope Vader tells Tarkin, "Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable..." so I think Leia resisted Vader in the same way that Rey did, we just didn't see it. It would make sense then that Vader understood that some people could resist, where Kylo Ren has never encountered it before.
    To be fair, how does any Jedi beat another? Maul kills Qui Gonn, a master Jedi, but is then killed by Obi Wan, a padawan. Obi Wan fights Vader, leaves him to die, and then looses to him 20 years later. And for all the hopping around he does, Yoda can't fight for shit. He fails to kill Dooku and the Emporer.

    Kylo Ren's reveal shows us the danger of the dark side, and his constant concern about being tempted by the light is an interesting reversal for him. I liked the character we got to see and I'm interested to see where he goes.
     
  12. Hubardo

    Hubardo Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    574
    I was disappointed at first because I thought Finn was a weak black character. Meaning, there was a big moment for him as the first ever. And I ended up thinking he was too aloof, frightened, naive, annoying. Like a black Jar Jar Binks or something. Then I just read an article that pointed out that he defied overly masculine stereotypes usually portrayed in Hollywood. Then I realized that what bothered me was my own unconscious bias of wanting for him to be the strongest, most violent, most cunning character. Rey ended up being the most masculine character instead. So, I'm still mulling over the social justice elements and what my own biases and expectations were, how that influences my reactions. In terms of writing and stuff, it was okay. I want to understand how big The Empire really is now because how is it that they got a planet sized thing that blew up planets, that got destroyed, and somehow they got a thing that shoots lazers that blows up multiple planets? Did destroying the deathstar just make them stronger? Like how blowing up Iraq created ISIS or something? Or how if somebody offed Trump, KKK chapters would pop up everywhere? Typing aloud now. It's been fun, thanks for the opportunity to blah
     
  13. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,023
    Likes Received:
    9,676
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    I actually liked Finn the way he was. If I wanted the typical male character who was the most vicious, the most cunning, the most powerful thing ever, I'll turn on Dragonball Z and watch Goku.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    Someone who overcomes a lifetime of brainwashing to become human is, IMO, far from weak.
     
  15. Hubardo

    Hubardo Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    574
    Meh, yeah... but we didn't see that. We saw him wearing the costume and changing his mind. If we saw him torn from his family, brainwashed, tortured etc, then the refusal and disobedience, that would be impressive. It's implied, but so subtly that it didn't hit me on an emotional level enough to connect with his struggle. Really, we haven't seen what the Empire does in any visual way or even in somebody's storytelling.
     
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    Hmm. I didn't see it as implied but as an in-your-face fact. He didn't even have a name.
     
  17. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    15,023
    Likes Received:
    9,676
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    It's possible this will be addressed in the next two films. This was basically him going, "Screw this, I'm getting away from the Empire now!"
     
  18. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Rey was my favorite character in the film. I also like Finn and thought the actor did a good job (plus he seems to be having a lot of fun with it IRL, showing up at theaters, etc.). I liked the movie. If I have one real qualm it's that they didn't allow for much emotional impact over Solo's death. There's a build up, and then it happens and is glossed over within a few moments. Chewie's pissed and we get a shot of Leia sensing it, and that's about it.
     
    Acanthophis likes this.
  19. Acanthophis

    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    340
    Location:
    Canada
    I felt the exact same way about Han's death. It's the biggest death in the franchise, and there isn't much of a reaction. In the aftermath of Han being killed, I thought Luke was going to show up from wherever he was and be really pissed - struggling to control his emotions of his best friend being killed. Chewie's reaction was good, and so was Leia's (given that they'd been apart and probably hated each other a fair amount), but it felt as if there wasn't enough reaction from other characters. I'd have liked to see the anger build up in Rey, who barely knows anything about her new powers. That's when the force should have awoken. Imagine upon a seeing her mentor (however brief) be killed, and then her using her rage, anger, and sadness to beat Kylo in a duel.

    I loved the movie, it's probably my second favourite after A New Hope, but I felt it did a few things incorrectly. The characters are all well written though, especially Rey who seems to ignore every social bias out genre.
     
  20. theoriginalmonsterman

    theoriginalmonsterman Pickle Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    460
    Location:
    New England
    I KENW IT ALL THIS TIME!
     
  21. rhduke

    rhduke Member Reviewer

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2013
    Messages:
    755
    Likes Received:
    192
    Location:
    Canada
    I thought it was good entertainment, didn't blow my mind. The film was tied strong to its roots so it didn't take risks with the plot or characters. Well okay except that one thing that happened. The action sequences were memorable and all the characters were more or less likable. I didn't love any of the new characters as much as I had hoped.
     
  22. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    Plot: Should we call it An Old Hope or A Newer Hope?

    I'd give A New Hope a 4/5 for using the plot of A New Hope, but I'd give The Force Awakens a 1/5 for using the plot of A New Hope.

    Characters: FANTASTIC :D I loved the idea of emo-Anakin (though hated the execution) and I loved emo-Ren.
     
  23. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Messages:
    7,676
    Likes Received:
    3,056
    Location:
    Williamsburg, KY
    Where were the Knights of Ren? Personally I thought the movie was just ok. Time did go by pretty quickly watching the movie, but I felt as if some of the coincidences in the movie were just too far out there.
     
  24. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2015
    Messages:
    2,595
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Nobody seems to know where they are, though Snoke mentions them, so they're clearly still around. Perhaps we'll see them in the next movie. The fact that Kylo is their leader seems to indicate they aren't very powerful force users, assuming they're force users at all.
     
  25. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,545
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    Denver
    No, Snoke calls Kylo "the last of the knights of Ren".

    Or maybe he said "the first..." Now I can't remember at all.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice