I had a thought today. I read the story of Adam and Eve today. And something occurred to me. The serpent talked. To Eve. With words. This led to a question: Could all the animals in Eden talk? If so, what would happen if we found the garden? would the animals there still talk? What would happen to the Garden if it was found in modern times? If not, why would only the serpent talk? **IMPORTANT NOTICE**This is assuming that the story did happen, the way the story goes. And in no way should this thread be used to debate any sort creationism v. evolution. Or anything of that nature. This is a pure just-for-fun what-if thread.
As I always understood it, once we fell from innoscence (gained knowledge) we (humans) no longer were able to understand animals. I assume its because we understood that we were different. So if we found Eden today, the animals would be no different.
Em, this question could be extrapolated into an interest premiss for a story... (hint, hint, wink, wink)
Written. I did this story a long time ago. I'm gonna go back over it sometime this week, and see if I could add in/change a few things based on tonight's thoughts.
You should work Cesar Millan into your story. Not as a main character, but in the background somewhere
The serpent represents Satan right, a being of near-limitless power? So him talking as a snake I can buy, but maybe not all the other animals. Acquiring knowledge and losing knowledge simultaneously seems a little paradoxical to me.
Oh, my. It's either been too long since I read this story, or I read a different version than you! I thought that it was only the serpent who could talk --not any of the other animals. And I thought the serpent could talk because he was Satan. So it had been all of my understanding that even in that story none of the animals could speak --in a language with verbs and nouns and such like English, at least; the serpent just didnt count as an animal. So, no. I dont think that if the story was interpreted as nonfiction, the animals could speak, and I dont think they'd be able to speak now. I find this question the one more intriguing. What would happen if we found the garden? Well, like the rest of the story, I doubt that Eden actually is a place but more of a symbol for God's love and what he can do. But if it did exist, what would it be --would it be a garden? What would it look like? And, since the garden is known to hold earthly delights, would it be different for everyone? I would think so, or it would at least hold enough to please all people... Interesting thread, Emily!
First off, in the story, it never says anything about Satan being the snake. In fact there is very little mention of Satan himself in the bible, though Lucifer is referred to briefly in later books. God curses the talking snake to crawl on his belly for all eternity, as such we have snakes now with no arms or legs. So that means before, before the curse, snakes had arms and legs, and could talk. Curiously enough, that makes the snake sound like the Summarians god figures in their creation story. Another curious thing that is never mentioned, were there two sexes of animals in the beginning with Adam? Or were all creatures on earth male? It was just Adam and animals on the planet for who knows how long...before Adam got lonely and couldn't use his reproductive system (if he had one) with any other animal created, thus Eve was formed as a counter part to Adam. This to me implies Adam might have been asexual, without any sexual reproductive organs. He couldn't self multiply like a worm, so like a flower, there has to be two parts. The talking snake creature, must have been present during this time, but there is no mention of him until the temptation of Eve. So where did the snake come from? Was he a minor god that the main God refers to as something to be worshipped that he was jealous of later on. The snake also appears to have the power of persuasion. Obviously, he is logical and already knows what would happen to Eve should she eat from the tree. And another thing. Why are there two trees, one of all knowledge and one of eternal life? Why did the snake not talk her into eating from the eternal life tree? Why was it the knowledge tree? It is supposed that Adam and Eve were already immortal inside the garden. Death was part of their punishment of exile. Childbirth was cursed to be painful, but that means it wasn't before. How many immortal children did Adam and Eve have in the garden, thus comparing childbirth before the fall to what happens after, and what happened to these children if any where produced? The snake was cursed to crawl, but nothing is said of it being cursed to never speak again does it? What about animal immortality inside the garden? If Adam and Eve didn't know death before the fall, were all other animals immortal? Was it only Adam and Eve who were kicked out of the garden? It doesn't say that all other animals were kicked out, thus it would be to good reason that the Garden of Eden exists somewhere with angels holding flaming swords and is full of immortal animals and the tree of immortality which would make man the same as the gods. There are a lot of different possibilities for a story I think.
I agree that I find the story in its original form more interesting and, as a story, more consistent. It is well known that Satan as serpent is from the contact of the Christian church with the extent religions of Europe at the time where the serpent was a symbol of wisdom. The same is true, and equally well known, that Satan as little red man with horns and a pitchfork is also a repainting of him to incorporate aspects of the gods of other religions. The pitchfork comes from Poseidon and the horns are from Cernunos. Nowhere in the Bible is Satan described in either guise. The original story is more consistent and approachable than preachy. With knowledge comes accountability. I think this is a much more profound lesson than do what I say or else. As for finding the real life Garden of Eden... The idea reminds me much of the story-line behind Mononoke Hime. Although in that story, the talking animals were referred to as gods themselves, there are parallels.
Whoa! Never crossed my mind. Great post, btw. Lots of food for thought. Wrey: Can you elaborate on those parallels?
Later Thoughts On The Same Subject: What if, (keep in mind that this is with the assumption of Christianity) by committing the first sin, Adam and Eve ruined it for the rest of the animals? If Man (and woman!) were created in God's image (see Gen. 1:27), would the animals relationship/trust/other appropriate word be broken after the fall of man? If they were the image of God, and therefore the animals image of man was the same as the image of God, would their sinning have caused the animals and the entire rest of the world to fall out of line with God?
Thanks. That's a little part of the reason I'm an atheist now. Too many holes in the stories for them to be literal. For me it's just a retelling of how man came out of the hunter/gatherer time period and into the agricultural society living. Hunting and gathering from nature around you is relatively simple, easy existence. Not realizing we will die, like animals not too aware of the pain of childbirth, and not used to living in larger social settings where clothing is warn out of modesty of non-family members. Really what other knowledge did Adam and Eve gain? It doesn't say they gained the knowledge of the cosmos and knew how to build ways to get to God. And how is it that they became like gods with the knowledge they acquired through eating the apple? Were the gods really that primitive? Using stone tools, no knowledge of metal work, living in thatched and mud huts? Or is it that we were awakened by becoming agricultural societies, to become innovative, to make ways of living together easier? Was the movement to live in larger groups our motivation to become technologically advanced? Thus making us as gods by creating something out of an idea, out of nothing? Is the story of The Garden of Eden nothing more than a metaphorical accounting of how man evolved from nomadic hunter/gatherers to social creatures in villages? The flood is another metaphoric story for the flooding from the ice caps melting during the end of the last major ice age. Most early humans settled along river banks and shore lines. Thus, as the water levels grew higher and higher, though through a much longer time than 40 days and nights of rain, most villages around the world were flooded out. There are native american settlements six miles out into the ocean on the west coast of America. There are lakes that were once just valleys with whole city's at the bottom of them. The people who survived made up stories to remember the lost people and structures and then became legends through oral traditions and some written languages. So, I don't think there were any talking animals, ever, that could communicate with humans, other than other humanoid species. I do think that there were several other human types living at the same time when modern man arrived on the scene. There is evidence that modern man may have encountered at least 3 other species of humans, and may have intermingled DNA with them, or outright conquered them out of existence. However, for the lines of a fictional story, biblical myths and stories are a good place for inspiration.
I have been raised in church since I was born, and I always figured all animals could talk. And after Eve fell into temptation, it was as if everything that brought pleasure to them was cast away. Such as, the pain of child birth, talking animals, etc. But, it also occured to me that the serpent was Satan, so Satan could have easily possessed that specific NON-TALKING serpent making it comune with Eve. So the Animals could have talked, or they couldn't have. Both make sense. Great topic
Forkfoot, we weren't talking about the islamic version of the torah, we were talking about the jewish/ christian adapted version.
But of course! The story of the The Garden of Eden speaks about the change from innocence to that of knowledge, and the price of accountability that comes with that knowledge. In The Garden we had complete peace and beauty because we were innocent of ourselves; we were as children. God telling Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of The Tree can be seen from many angles. It can be thought of as a lesson of obeisance. Do as I say; don't ask why. Blind obedience. Or, and I think more profound and meaningful, it can be thought of as don't be so fast to grow up. There's no rush. And honestly, the drudgery that comes with accountability is nothing to be wished for. In Mononoke Hime (Princess Mononoke) there is an enchanted forest where animals are huge and intelligent and are thought of as gods. There is a god of gods, so to speak, who also lives there and takes the form of a many horned deer with the face of a human* (kind of). In this story, humans have come to the edge of the forest and want to take it down in order to mine up the ore which is underneath. Some people side with the forest gods, others against, and some play both sides of the fence. (Very common in Asian lit that the protags and the antags are not so cleanly defined as they are in western lit.) Anywho, the story is very much a "green story" about the importance of keeping in tune with nature, but it is also about the power there is to be had in original innocence, that our eyes become clouded as we grow to adulthood and only through innocence do we see clearly. In the opening sequence, the village where the protagonist of the story comes from is attacked by one of the foest god animals after the god had been shot with a very rudimentary kind of musket. The ball of iron in the gods body transforms him into a demon.** Very easy to see a metaphor here that with industry and technology (knowledge) comes the ability to poison ourselves with evil. Sound familiar? If you've not seen Princess Mononoke, it is very much worth a watch. As a budding writer, I would ask you to watch this movie with an eye to seeing how different cultures contemplate similar themes. * The Forest God of Gods in Mononoke Hime Spoiler ** Forest god turned into a demon after being shot from opening sequence. Spoiler
I don't recall all the details, but the creation story in the Qur'an is very similar to ours (Adam and Eve, the garden, original sin, etc) with a few notable exceptions. The ones I remember are that it is made clear that the snake was Satan in disguise, there is no mention of Eve being the one that leads Adam astray, and the part about how they had kids and populated the Earth was quite a bit different. It was kinda neat; might be worth doing a little research into the Muslim creation story.
I remember reading that Christmas story that said God lets all the animals talk for one hour a year, at midnight on Christmas Eve. I always thought that was a cute story. =)
A reminder from the beginning of this thread: Fair warning - turning this thread into a religious debate after this point will result in disciplinary action.
I always felt that the serpent was influenced by Satan, not Satan himself. I also don't think that the serpent was possessed by Satan, otherwise it would not have been just for God to curse it.
Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more crafty that any other wild animal that the Lord God had made" The snake is set apart from the others. No where in the story do the other animals speak. It is possible that it was only the snake who was able to communicate. And therefore, if we found the garden..the animals would be common and mute.
