The art of the story

Thanks for all the responses. I'll see if I can sort it out but if not I'll have to try something else.

Um, no? You may be thinking of someone else.

 

A lot of good advise in this thread. I am a very inexperienced writer so I don’t have much to add. But I would like to reiterate what was said about perfectionism. It kills writing as much as any thing. For a long time I read Faulkner and cormac McCarthy and these authors inspired me. But when I sat down and wrote I was paralyzed because I wanted to write like them but I couldn’t. So I didn’t write. Now I am able to write because I hav e accepted that my first attempts at writing are going to be lousy and it is arrogant to compare my self to McCarthy and Faulkner. Before I wanted to write only if it wa sperfect now I write because I enjoy writing. I’m still inspired by Faulkner and McCarthy but I understand that writing at that level will take years of hard work, if it is ever achieved.

 

When you write a scene, about how long is it and what do you try and encompass. I've read that it's supposed to hit on (paraphrasing) a desire, a problem and a resolution to that problem. I was curious as to how you folks do it.

Personally, I write each scene as a part of a chapter as a whole. Each chapter usually consists of two or three scenes depending on the word count for the scenes. I try and keep my chapters about 10 to 15 pages, no more than I would want to read for a chapter, and use chapter and scene breaks to pass time (traveling across the fantasy world, etc.). My scenes usually end where it feels they should naturally end, leaving a bit of mystery or suspense hanging to keep the (future) reader wanting to know what happens next.

I'm very much an amateur writer and any help would be appreciated.

Thanks and happy writing.

 

How exactly are you defining a "scene"? Like a vignette? An event? If that's the case then my advice is very simple: just do it! If it seems a bit (or more than a bit) drawn out without a good reason for it being that way, then you have something to shorten. If it's short but sweet, why bother messing with it?

I'm also not sure if chapter length is relevant since most people will simply bookmark where they are should they have/want to call it quits. The shortest chapter I ever read contained just the line "my mother is a fish" and while the book itself was very boring, it was popular enough to be mandatory reading in a high school (I forget it's name, but it's distinctive for its incomprehensible dialect and being about a family trying to bury a mother/wife no one actually liked and have only bad memories of).

Of course I don't recommend actually making single-line chapters (unless it makes sense for some reason), but I am saying chapter length is "what it needs to be" not "what it ought to be".

Like 1 chapter could consistently equal a beginning and a conclusion (or cliffhanger) to an event or series of closely related events (for example: Event 1: hang out with friends at bar talking about a desire to lose virginity, spots an attractive and loose woman. Event 2: Perspective male attempts to seduce woman, is extremely nervous and having doubts. Is surprised when she reciprocates sexual interest. Event 3: post-sex, feeling of self-disgust mixed with anxiety. Ends with the attractive woman leaving him alone to his thoughts). I'd consider all these "Events" to be scenes and how long should they be?

Perhaps Event 1 is only a page or two (or 500 words) as it's basically just a review of what happened during the last week and ends with Main Male feeling insecure and desiring to fix that by losing his virginity to an attractive stranger. Event 2 could either be lengthy (5 pages, 2,500 words) or short (1 page, 250 words) depending on what is intended. Perhaps the Main Male spends a page fighting his fears and apprehensions and then finally gets to her; afterwards he struggles to tell her what he wants to do with her and she teases him throughout, playing coy, until he finally confesses his desires and she leads him to a nearby hotel. Event 3 could be 2 or so pages; a page dedicated to describing how Main Male feels after losing his virginity to a loose woman, and then thinking about "what now?" and noticing she doesn't even care to say "goodbye", confirming she only had sex with him for the sake of it and doesn't care much for him as a man.

In total this chapter would have 8 pages, and it could be longer as individual scenes could be longer depending on where you wanted to go with them. Maybe between Event 2 and Event 3 could have been a "challenge", like a drinking game, and that might extend the chapter to 11 or 12 pages.

Point is; chapter and scene length can vary widely; but I think it's safe to consider scenes "vignettes" or "events" and chapters a miniature arc of them. The arc of this chapter being "Male is insecure, desires to have sex to lose virginity, summons the courage to ask out the attractive stranger, feels terrible after having sex with her. Ends with a feeling of anxiety and regret, perhaps a hint to his next chapter".

If I was describing a Battle instead of a tryst, the chapter might be far longer (15+ pages) as the battle of so-and-so could be rather exciting and multifaceted, and might even deserve multiple chapters to encapsulate it. Meanwhile a simple conversation between a protagonist and his best friend, asking for advice perhaps, could be comparatively short (5 pages). I suggest not sweating the small stuff and coming back to this question once you're done your first draft and revisions.

 

My scenes usually start with a high-emotion situation that my brain insists would be fun to explore. They might, coincidentally, end up having some plot. But I’m not very normal.

In the past few days I’ve been trying to write a series of short scenes that do have a plot purpose, and while the plot part goes fine, I feel as if the scenes are showing their more-utilitarian origins. I need to find some emotional thread that allows them to feel like they’re part of the same novel.

So it sounds like I’m saying that a scene needs emotional resonance and then it needs some plot purpose. And stuff that does neither, and also fails to amuse or fascinate, should be eyed suspiciously.

Edited to add: my scenes vary from 250 to 2000 words, with very few outside that range. I’d guess that the median would be about 800 words. Chapters tend to run about 5000 words.

I’m not published, so this is coming from an amateur.

 

Nice to know you're a Dark Angel Player for the lion I play more Ravenwing, speed kills. I made it where each scene is it's own chapter. I try to keep it under 9 pages mainly because I want the reader to have mental breaks and digest the story. If a 8th grade can understand my story with great understanding then I did my best to make simple best I can. A few people may see this as "dumbing down" but its basically how the military does it. They make all the reading material in 8th grade level for everyone can understand.

 

Use the story cycle to break it up into parts: https://www.youtube.com/user/clickokDOTcoDOTuk/videos

 

What seems natural to you, @Andrew Vord ? I don't think you'll find any 'rules' about scene length, etc ...at least none that seem to apply to everybody. Ask yourself what is the difference between a scene and a chapter? They are both units within a story.

I define 'scene' as a unit in the story in which a single purpose is achieved. I define 'chapter' as a unit in the story where several purposes are achieved, all of which relate closely to one another and come to a mini-conclusion that moves the story forward. I know, these are vague definitions, but they work for me.

I learned, through trial and error, that the best way for me to focus while writing is to ask myself, before I begin any scene: what do I want this scene to accomplish? This has to be specific, not just a vague general wish. Not something like: I want to make this interesting. Rather: I want to show that my main character is hiding something sinister about his past.

As for the chapter? Taking the above example, you can show that your main character is hiding his past in the first scene, then in the next scene, the antagonist discovers the main character's secret. Then in the scene that ends that chapter, the antagonist confronts the main character with the information he's uncovered, and the main character is forced to leave town.

 

Any time I start writing and get anywhere I think of a better idea to start the whole thing. Just feel like I can't get anywhere because I'm always changing my mind. Any advice on how to stop this or what to do? It will take me twenty years to finish my novel at this point I've barely gotten into the second chapter.

Thanks!!

 

Never go back and re-write until you are finished with the whole thing. The time for rewrites is after you're done.

 

Don't worry about the beginning. As many authors will attest, this is the part of a story that is most likely to get changed. Just keep going, even if what you write next doesn't quite connect to your 'beginning' thus far. A lot of us, me included, write unnecessary guff at the beginning. It's just there to get us started. The important thing is to keep going.

Unfortunately, while we're constantly (and rightly) told that the beginning of a story is important (vitally important)—the first sentence, the first paragraph, the first page must be perfect in order to capture a reader's attention, get published, yadda yadda—new writers rarely realise that the beginning doesn't need to be perfect AT FIRST. In fact it probably won't be. Engineering a perfect beginning is necessary, but it's something most writers do during the editing process.

Just carry on with your story, secure in the idea that you can change anything that needs changing. If you're not sure what direction your story will take, pick one and go for it. Dithering too much at the start isn't really going to get you anywhere. However, you can change at any time. Once you get your story written, you are a lot more likely to see what needs to change. And if you can't see it, your beta readers probably will, and give you feedback on it.

Yes, you will end up rewriting a lot, throwing a lot away, adding stuff you didn't write in the first draft. But that's getting your story shaped and polished. It's not wasting time. It's learning. However, getting stuck at the beginning and spending months and years attempting to get started (and failing) is likely to turn out to be a waste of time.

Nothing you ever write is set in stone, until you get it published. So don't be afraid to write stuff that isn't 'right.' The more you give yourself to work with, the better.

 

I started my novel four times.
Each time, I was trying to *be* someone, someone I certainly wasn't. First, I tried to be JRR Tolkien; then, I tried to be Tamora Pierce; then, I tried to be funny. This fourth beginning is doomed to be rewritten, but it gave me my voice. My narrator.
If your problem is that you can't figure out how to start your book, then I can almost guarantee you're attempting to solve the wrong problem. The first three novels didn't go anywhere, and not because the first chapter was wrong.
Figure out what it is *precisely* that has you so dissatisfied with your first chapter or two. Are you unhappy with your narrator's voice? Are you unhappy with your description of the setting? Is the point in time relative to your plot just not right? Once you know what your problem is, everything is much easier to solve.

 

Do an outline and THEN start writing. Change the outline not the writing.

 

For me, it was starting in the wrong place. I didn't recognise my mistake till quite a while after I'd reached The End. My beginning wasn't right—I knew it—but I couldn't pinpoint the problem immediately. I spent far too much editing time tinkering word choices, without recognising the actual problem.

Unless you start with "I was born" like Charles Dickens began David Copperfield, you'll be starting a story in the middle of your character's life. It can be problematic choosing where that exact place should be.

Sometimes it turns out you've started it too late in your character's life, and you have to go back and explain a lot (flashback after flashback—my original Prologue.) Other times you start too soon. That means a lot of unnecessary stuff gets included, scene by scene, that can actually be skipped over and summarised in a sentence or two (my original Chapter One.)

Re-starting these two chapters in a different place, during my editing process, made a huge difference to how my story reads now. It's an improvement, for sure.

It's sometimes difficult to recognise these situations till you finish. So ...however you've started, just keep going. It'll all come clear eventually.

 

Fair enough, @jannert

 

Don't worry about it. I did the same thing. I have about 3 text books of fresh starts! Put it all down to practice - when I look back at my earlier versions I cringe, but it's all part of the learning process.

 

This can definitely be a good approach, but I would advise caution if following this religiously. Some ideas just don’t work. If an author finds themselves with such an idea, they’re probably better off bailing before they put too much time into that idea and just writing something else. But when a writer has an idea that can work, there is also value in committing to it and weathering any short term storms with “I will sort that out in the revisions.” The key here is finding a good balance, I think; try to move always in the right direction, with the knowledge that the specific words and individual details might change. Separate the forest and the trees.

This can also work, but not everyone is an outliner, and sometimes cracks can develop in a seemingly good outline when it actually gets down to being written.

 

Matt E said what I came here to say. Sometimes I can see my novel starts derailing completely and there's no point to keep going. Sometimes it's better to take a step back rather than go on and have bigger problems later. No shame in that.

 

If you think about it, unless you know exactly how your story is going to end, you can't write THE beginning. Because the ending has to answer the questions you asked in the beginning. Hence @jannert's advice.

In the book I've been pitching, the original Chapter One was dropped altogether, and the original Chapter Two became Chapter One, but only after it was heavily revised. Twice. No, make that thrice (because of a plot twist I decided on much later that had to be foreshadowed at the very beginning).

 

That can work well. And of course there's no shame in stopping if something isn't working. However, I'd become concerned if all I ever did was stop. As long as stopping results in a finished product at some stage, more power to your arm.

The people who need to worry a bit, in my opinion, are the ones who keep starting over and over, but never get finished. Problems aren't always solved by starting over. Sometimes they are best faced straight on until their nature is understood. And not all writing problems are solved by continually banging away x number of words per day on the computer. Sometimes what is need (badly) is time AWAY from the writing. Time that is focused on thinking. No shame in that either.

Maybe ask yourself these three questions, in order:

WHY am I having a problem? That's a big one. If you can figure out exactly why you're struggling with an area of your work, then the solution to the problem usually presents itself fairly quickly.

WHAT can I do to solve it? Here's where a bit of brainstorming can happen. You've got this situation that's not working, for reasons you've discovered during the WHY part of the process. Okay, so ...what if I try this ...or that ...or the character becomes a different gender ...or the father dies (or lives) ...or the character wins the duel instead of losing it ...and etc.

HOW do I make this change of direction work? Okay, then you start to figure out what you're going to need to change about what you've already written. This is where you must go carefully, to avoid setting up plot holes. But it's fun to finally emerge at the other end of the tunnel, knowing you've solved the problem and created something better.

All of these, rather than, oh, gee, this is awful...back to the drawing board again...gimme another blank page. Rinse, repeat....

 

Thank you everyone for your responses! Been very helpful!

 

Why is this? I see myself as a discovery writer, so my beginning remarks move linearly to the next ones.

 

Because if you don't keep writing, you never finish the story. There are lots of people who will relentlessly polish their first chapter and never go beyond it. What good is the best first chapter ever written if it's not part of a completed story?