The Bechdel Test!

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by g_man526, May 1, 2013.

  1. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

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    Except Bechdel is no authority on the subject any more than anyone else and can only offer one person's opinion. Which carries as much weight at any other person's opinion.

    The very word "feminist" is an archaic, outdated holdout from the 20th century and needs to be shoved into mothballs, or burned, along with all of those aforementioned bras.
     
  2. LordKyleOfEarth

    LordKyleOfEarth Contributor Contributor

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    Wouldn't a porno, containing two women, who are discussing what they are going to do to each-other pass this test? I'm pretty sure that would not qualify as non-sexist media, despite passing Bechdel's test.
     
  3. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    May I ask a question that I, myself, consider painfully obvious?

    The test, which wasn't actually conceived as a test, and whose creator doesn't seem to have intended as a "test" so much as a means of critiquing one of aspect of modern film, does nothing more that draw our attention to the simple and undeniable fact that film tends to reflect the often unequal position that women have in modern society. I would also point out that this often unequal position is less direct, less obvious and more insidious than at other times in our history and in other cultures, but it is there. As writers, we may choose to fight this inequality by portraying it, by portraying struggles against it, or by portraying a fictional world in which it does not exist. We may also choose to lampoon it, or to ignore it, or to portray it as a good thing. Bechdel's "test" does nothing that impairs or limits or affects in any way our ability to do any of that. It also doesn't serve as a single "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" on films. As funkybassmannick said, it is more of comment on film over time.

    I can think of several films off the top of my head that "fail the test" and are still excellent films. But it isn't just about excellent films. It's about how films perpetuate inequality.

    As it happens, I don't think the "test" does a very good job at getting to the heart of the matter. But that doesn't change the fact that it presents an interesting lens through which to view film.
     
  4. AVCortez

    AVCortez Active Member

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    You're bending the test to support your argument - who considers a casino teller (actually called a change host, dealer or cage attendant), present for one scene, with very little dialogue, a character? No one that I know with any real knowledge about film or character development does. What's so annoying about this discussion is that this test is so stupid without you manipulating its meaning. You're actually weakening your case by clinging to poxy semantics.

    How on earth did you get to that conclusion? The Bechdel test is made up. She made it up. So if she wants to make up that it's different, she can. That's the point of making stuff.
     
  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I just read a webpage titled "Why film schools teach screenwriters not to pass the Bechdel test". Entertaining. In accordance with my uncertainty about posting links, I won't post a link, but that phrase in Google should find it.

    Edited to add:

    One of the pages linked to by this page asserts that Xena fails to pass the reverse Bechdel test - that there are no occasions when two male characters talk to each other about something other than a woman.

    I'd be surprised if this is true, surprised that such a scene _never_ happened in all those episodes, but I must admit that I can't think of an example. Xena is certainly about the women - the women are the ones that matter, the ones that drive the plot, the ones whose reactions and thoughts we care about. The men are tangential, there to produce a reaction or action on the part of the women. So it's a pretty good example, highlighting what the Bechdel statistics indicate by demonstrating a mirror image.

    Don't these contradict each other?

    It's certainly true that if we demandeded deep and meaningful conversations between the two female characters, the statistics would be even worse. I'm not interested in gaming the statistics; I really don't care if my intepretation of the test fails to make those statistics look as bad as possible.

    Some variants of the test demand two _named_ characters, and others demand that the conversation be sixty seconds or more. That strikes me as too much work and too much case-by-case debate. The simplest version of the test is easy to apply, and the statistics are still disturbing enough to seem significant to me.
     
  6. traceymcl

    traceymcl New Member

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    Very much agree with this, Nick.

    In particular the stuff about equality. I think that it's very important to remember the equality side of things so as to avoid falling into the trap of putting men down in order to look for equality. I have one or two acquaintances who describe themselves as feminists while happily engaging in 'all men are bastards' type conversations.
     
  7. AVCortez

    AVCortez Active Member

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    No, they don't. Using semantics as the basis for an argument shows the person does not truly understand the core concept of the debate. Politicians tend to do it because they are appealing to the lowest common denominator.

    But your interpretation of the test defeats the purpose of the test. It's like making a test to determine insanity, but it only works if the person is sane. Not to mention if you interpret a lot of things word for word and you are going to run into trouble e.g. evangelical religious types who blow themselves up, rally, and generally piss people off because they take metaphors and parables literally. Common sense is required. The test would not have been conceived, nor attained any popularity, if it did not in some way determine what it set out to do. Define gender bias in film.

    What statistics? You said you don't care about statistics and then quote statistics you haven't given.
     
  8. AVCortez

    AVCortez Active Member

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    Ironically, I've found women (I should say girls really) who involve themselves in "All men are bastards" conversations tend to be the same as the ones who chase drug dealers, and gym junkies, then cry a river when the meat head cheats on them. Plenty of men are bastards, and if you wear crotchless panties after taking two ecstasy pills, they're the only ones you're going to meet (actual person).
     
  9. TerraIncognita

    TerraIncognita Aggressively Nice Person Contributor

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    You can't educate people who are determined to cling to their ideals and get a positive result every time. What you are positing here suggests you believe right and wrong are relative ideas that are individual to each person. I could go into a whole other argument for that but I won't.

    So there's good reasons I get cat called (which is essentially being told I exist solely for their pleasure whether I want to or not) and spoken down to? I can assure you I am educated, intelligent, and a classy dresser. Yet none of that prevents me from consistently encountering men who do these things.

    I thought educating people would fix it?

    There's a few historical women who could argue that if they were still around today.

    May I ask then, why you are so adamant in the start of this that teaching people otherwise and giving them reasons would change things?

    That is the first thing you've said I can agree with. No one can change all of society. We can change and affect those around us. The ultimate goal should be to better yourself and those around you.

    You ought to get out more if you believe society has made such leaps and bounds in gender equality. And for the record, women who internalize misogyny and perpetuate are equally to blame as the men who started it.

    If you believe people have always in all situations adhered to strict traditional gender roles then what do you believe people did in times of war? Or when a spouse died? In many points in history it was not only normal but expected that women did the same work as men. How do you think people grew enough food to sell as well as feed their family? Farming is not an easy one person job.



    This is something I've actually spoken to my brother and boyfriend about at length and I agree it is wrong. Women are not always weaker than men and even if they are weapons certainly level the playing field. My boyfriend was consistently physically abused by his stepmother for years. It makes me sick at my stomach. Using your strength over anyone is always wrong regardless of gender. I can definitely agree that the mentality that women are always the victims and never the perpetrators is incredibly problematic for many reasons that affect both sides. :/ Cruelty does not know gender.
     
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  10. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    I've often wondered about these conversations and what's their point cos I too have noticed that it's often the girls with the worst boyfriends that complain that men are pigs (which, I guess, makes sense), yet they don't seem too eager to change their ways. In fact, I can't even imagine them with a nice, non-booze guzzling, 9-5 job holding, non-self-destructive guy. I know, I'm generalizing a bit, but it's almost as if there's a pattern there.
     
  11. cazann34

    cazann34 Active Member

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    Very eloquently put. I've never heard of such a test, either. The craft of writing is challenging enough without having to pass inane tests.
     
  12. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    Another piece of this is that the type of people you are attracted to and surround yourself with does say something about your personality. I've seen plenty of people who end up in some sort of bad situation that appears on the surface not to have been their own fault, but the result of some crazy or mean or immature action on the part of someone else. But at the same time, these people seem to be in these situations repeatedly. Other people are rarely in these bad situations, partly because the people they are around are emotionally stable and mature, and don't do things that sabotage other people or let them down, or create chaos, etc.
     
  13. traceymcl

    traceymcl New Member

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    Habits can be kind of hard to break and I think they extend to types of people that each of us tends to form relationships with. Yep - if a person's habit has been to form relationships with abusive men then I reckon it'll be very hard for them to stop doing so even if they can eventually see their own pattern. I know that eating too much chocolate is bad for me and makes me gain weight - and yet somehow that knowledge isn't enough to stop me indulging regularly in what is a pretty self destructive habit.

    Of course, being often around men who behave very badly toward women will result in a belief that all men are bastards - personal experience is very hard for any of us to deny.
     
  14. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    This is a problem, but part of the solution is to make it more acceptable for men to stay at home, to have secondary careers, and to take leave from work to care for a new child. Really, it needs to be more acceptable for everybody to do what they need as far as work/family balance.

    I'm not sure how common people of this outlook are. There may have been more earlier, because the notion of women having equal rights was so radical and scary, that really there had to be people at the opposite extreme, just to get people toward the center. I agree that this would not be feminism, but something different. Misandry isn't desirable, either.

    Yes. Almost anything can sound ridiculous when taken to the extreme.

    Male feminists are the best. I really hope my sons become proud feminists. (Female feminists are also the best. I'm always shocked that there aren't more of them. Most harmful are female anti-feminists/misogynists -- I find them more puzzling and dismaying than male ones.)
     
  15. funkybassmannick

    funkybassmannick New Member

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    The next time you hear the "All men are bastards," argument, challenge it. "Isn't feminism about equality? Shouldn't men be treated with as much respect as women? Would you ever say, 'All women are bitches?' So, isn't it sexist to say, 'All men are bastards?'"

    I think we tend to excuse sexism if it's a female being sexist toward males. We should challenge all stereotypes and all inequalities, male & female, black & white, etc. A quote I take to heart is by Martin Luther King, Jr: "Inequality anywhere is a threat to equality everywhere."


    That's the thing, female misandrists are very rare. But all it takes is one and people get extremely upset by it and then claim it represents the "new direction" of feminism. Similarly, the few female misogynists are often glorified by male misogynists. It's like, "Look! It's a woman who agrees with my distorted reality! Therefore, I'm right!" It's textbook confirmation bias.

    I'm sure your sons will become feminists. You don't even have to teach them about feminism, just teach them about equality and they'll probably figure it out on their own.
     
  16. squishytheduck

    squishytheduck New Member

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    I don't know what you mean by "female perspective". Are you trying to write a treatise on post-feminism feminist ideology? Also, the phrase alone is vaguely offensive, as it seems to imply all females have some sort of collective identity, which doesn't exist for females or any demographic for that matter.

    As you are writing, if you keep the concept in mind that females are also human beings with fully developed individuality and interests, you shouldn't have a problem finding women who can identify with your characters.
     
  17. AVCortez

    AVCortez Active Member

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    All I read there was "I hope my sons become functioning adults."

    Feminism shouldn't even be a thing, gender equality should be the default.
     
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  18. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    ditto that, avc... and big 'bravo!' for saying it... [which, of course, i wish didn't call for a 'bravo!' ]
     
  19. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    I agree with you, but unfortunately we're not there yet. And we're not even close enough. We've got too many folks pushing in the wrong direction.
     
  20. funkybassmannick

    funkybassmannick New Member

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    I agree that the word is quickly becoming outdated. It was created for women by women, and worked really well in the 60's as a rallying point, but has suffered many shortcomings.

    1) There is no clear definition. There are so many different definitions. The one I like best is just a synonym for "gender equality," but then why not say that?
    2) Because it has many definitions, it's been hard to get everyone to rally for basic "gender equality." In the late 80's, straight white women, straight black women, and lesbians were practically fighting each other over their different agendas, instead of working together. (Straight white women didn't like what lesbians were "doing" to the feminist movement, and black women disagreed with both so much that they distanced themselves entirely from the word and chose "Womanism.")
    3) Because of its many definitions, it becomes easy for misogynists and other critics to set up a "Straw Man" and discount everything good feminism has to offer.
    4) It excludes men from the equation. Men suffer from harmful stereotypes as well, and feminism can imply that women suffer and men don't. It can even put men on the defensive, where "gender equality" might be easier to swallow.
    5) It excludes transgender from the equation, who very likely suffer more than women.

    What do we use for other categories? "Marriage equality." "Racial equality." "Social equality." In the end, all "Feminism" does is tell us who is the least advantaged (also... transgender?). We don't need a word to tell us who is the least advantaged in other categories, and we don't in this one either.

    I like to call myself a feminist openly because it's a more powerful word, but really...

    My name is Nick, and I am a Gender-Equalist. Have another nice day.
     
  21. TerraIncognita

    TerraIncognita Aggressively Nice Person Contributor

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    I definitely agree with that, Nick. All of it. Intersectionality is very important. That's something I've really enjoyed about tumblr. I've found a lot of blogs who are collectives of people who believe intersectionality is integral to gaining ground in equality for everyone. I'd say every group has people who overlap into multiple categories and it's good to be inclusive. I honestly do not care why someone is marginalized. If they are marginalized then I will be rooting for them because I know what it's like to encounter that kind of opposition.

    I do like gender equalist better. I think feminism has come to be associated with misandry which is really unfortunate because I haven't really seen that many misandrists. I do agree with your earlier statement that it is one in a great many and it's been blown out of proportion.

    Liz, I think your boys will turn out great. All you've got to do is live as an example of what you want for them. It makes an impact, trust me. When I was a kid (and now of course) my parents never discouraged me or my siblings from pursuing a hobby or interest just because it was outside of what was traditionally feminine (or masculine in my brother's case). Part of this was by their own example as well as them treating it as though being equally interested in "boy" and "girl" things was normal. My mom really bends gender roles quite a bit. She is very handy and can fix many things without instruction or assistance. My dad on the other hand is not mechanically or kinetically inclined at all. My dad is very much an intellectual and nerd who is better with computers and programming than fixing a leaky sink. My mom is also really into gardening and an excellent cook. My parents have always just done what needed to be done by whoever had the capability to do it. I grew up being equally comfortable in frilly tulle lined dresses as I was in shorts and t shirts with baseball caps. It was just normal and acceptable for me to cross traditional gender lines whenever it's suited me. And that's how I am today and I really like it that way because that's who I am. Anyone who knows me well says mentally I am very much androgynous. I don't really prefer one gender over the other when it comes to friendships. I'm comfortable as long as they match up with other qualities I look for in friends. :p

    My point is set a good example (I'm sure you're doing great since you are concerned over it! :)) and let them be themselves. They'll thank you for it and be better rounded individuals, imo. No parent is perfect and that's okay. I know when I was younger I resented my parents a lot for various things but now that I'm older I can see they did a lot of really good things for me that I'm grateful for. You sound like you are a very kind and concerned parent and that goes a long way! So try not to worry too much!
     
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  22. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks, Terra. I try not to worry too much, because there is a limit on how a parent can truly mold a child. The one nugget of information that scares me more than anything else is that Jerry Falwell's father and grandfather were both devout atheists.

    All I can really do is try to expose them to the idea that everyone is equal and no one should be discriminated against for some inherent biological property they possess.

    I was very proud of my eight year old recently. My grandmother died last year, and she had a cat that my uncles (who are gay) had given her. They already had cats and could not add another one. They also were in the process of moving to a different part of Chicago. They had said that they had worked with some sort of pet placement person, and the cat went to live with a gay couple in a the same part of Chicago where my uncles were moving. So when my son asked me what had happened to my grandmother's cat, I wasn't thinking much of it, and said "Oh, he went to live with a gay couple in Chicago." His reply was, "What difference does it make that they're gay, Mom? A gay couple is just as good as any other couple."

    He had me -- I should have just said "couple." But I was so very happy to hear him call me out on it. I just hope he doesn't change in that respect.
     
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  23. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    It's always a kick to hear your children remind you of what you've worked so hard to impart to them. Being "carefully taught" can cut either way.
     
  24. Mithrandir

    Mithrandir New Member

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    I do not believe right and wrong are relative. No, no, no. I believe the exact opposite of that. Right and wrong are solid concepts that derive directly from a person's ownership of their own mind.

    Men who cat-call you don't do it because they think you exist solely for their pleasure. They have no philosophy behind it. They don't feel like they're insulting you. Most men look at women's body; it's in their nature. The men who cat-call you simply don't have very good impulse control -- rapist have absolutely none and thus act as animals.

    Also, I never said that being educated stops other people from harassing you. I said that if the harassers thought, they would stop. Notice I didn't say educated. Education is closely linked with thinking, but it isn't the same.




    I believe that one should postulate ideals and recognize reality. Ideally, all humans should think and reason. In reality, few spend their mental resources on such esoteric goals.

    So, as a person, I must try and change things through the most effective means possible. But as an observer, I can tell that things probably won't work out.

    When you compare society two hundred years ago to current society, you'll find that significant 'leaps and bounds' have been made in a relatively short time.

    And no, I don't believe people have 'always in all situations' adhered to gender roles. I never said this. I assign no value to 'gender roles'. I don't think working is better than mothering.

    What I said is rather blatant. Ancient societal norms came from circumstances where physical force (aptly named "manpower") was the primary means of production and defense. This has changed, and thus, society changes.
     
  25. TerraIncognita

    TerraIncognita Aggressively Nice Person Contributor

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    Saying right and wrong are derived from each individuals mind via their own judgement is the exact same thing as "right and wrong is relative". If each person decides what is right or wrong then that would mean right and wrong are relative concepts and not fixed.

    Hardly. Why would anyone make what are clearly unsolicited and unwanted sexual comments about a stranger's body unless they felt that person was there solely for their pleasure. It is a power thing not an impulse problem. As is rape. Rape does not occur because men (or women in rare cases) lack the ability to control their sex drives. To say that rape is an impulse control issue is to say that rape is the default for men and not a deviant behavior. I don't agree with that and would assume men would be offended by the implication that rape is natural and only kept in check by impulse control.

    It is in anyone's nature to look at a person they find attractive. Well, unless you're asexual. There is a big leap between being looked at in aesthetic appreciation and being made to feel like being in a crowd or with a husband, boyfriend, or male friend is the only thing standing between you and being harmed. Context is always key in such situations. No one feels intimidated by their significant other looking at them in such a manner because it is not malicious in intent, there is trust, there is a relationship.

    Again unwanted sexual contact is not the norm. The vast majority of individuals who desire sexual contact in any way shape or form desire consensual contact. Ask any psychologist, rape is not about sex it is about power.


    Clearly. Poor behavior does not get a free pass just because it is the reality of the situation. It is recognized which is why it angers people and prompts change. It's hardly ignoring reality to be angry about behaviors that are unhealthy.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke


    I find this funny. Women being treated like objects never should have been the norm. There is something twisted about a society that not only allows it but is happy to reward people who hold such beliefs dear. Female genital mutilation is a still a common and acceptable practice in parts of the world. Gender based abortion is a common and accepted practice in parts of the world. A dear friend of mine who is large chested was constantly groped when she was in highschool and the principal just told her "boys will be boys". An eleven year old is raped and people say she was wearing "too much makeup". These last two were in civilized parts of the world. We have not made nearly so much progress as you think when these attitudes are still so prevalent.

    Your words heavily implied it. I could go back and quote them but I don't feel like hunting it down again.


    Oh wait I don't have to go back and find it. Here you've said it yourself.

    Mankind has been a term that has been in use for centuries but it still refers to not only men but women, girls, and boys as well. Or would you tell me that boys did not work alongside their fathers? So why is it not "boypower"? It is a simpler way to lump an entire group together. I imagine the etymology of the world comes from Christianity where it is believed man was created first and then woman from him. I could be wrong that is my theory.
     

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