The God Question

It's faith because he is to the wider degree unknowable. That is until he took a mortal form as Jesus at which point he became to a slight degree, knowable. It's a moot point. The goal of christianity isn't to know god so well you can guess what he'll have for breakfast (sarcasm) but to trust him that he'll take you where you need to be.

I direct this statement here: Straw Man Argument.

You've essentially done what I said can't be done. You're applying the logic of a finite universe to something that should he exist created it and is not bound by it. I won't try proving it logically because the entire argument is based on the idea you can't do so (I like to think of faith as the eternal catch-22).

This is what I was looking for XD. I've never been able to get this thing the way I've heard it before but that's about it in a nice summary (the other guy I heard it from was really long winded... and repetitive XD).

This reminds me of the phrase, "If god is god could he cook a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it?" Again. I won't try to prove god logically because it's in effect impossible. If god exists, I readily see that the only way that makes sense is for him to exist in a state of being that our logic cannot apply too. That's the faith part again XD.

First off, in the age old saying, "Ignorance is no excuse" is one of my favorites (also called arguing ignorance fallacy. Not knowing the truth/false of something does not negate the truth/false of that thing). Second, read the story:

If you're told murder is bad and you could be put to death for it, and you do it anyway that's your fault.

Side Note:More often I hear people wonder why god put the tree there in the first place cause he should have known what would have happened (which is a very good question with a boat load of answers ranging from good, to interesting, to making no sense XD).

I'm not sure if this is it but it seems to me you misunderstand the Christian concept of Evil. Evil is not the opposite of god, it is the defiance or absence of acknowledgement of god. This goes back to Eden in which Eve ignored what God told her, which ultimately is the original sin. It boils down to the arrogance of assuming that which one does not and cannot know (which is why in the Christian world view arrogance and pride are the pinnacles of sin.. although I'm pretty sure that's a very common concept). Ironically the logic of "God put it there so it must be ok, right?" is the problem XD.

If god did everything for us the trial of life is pointless. He doesn't interact with us so we can sit on our butts while his fancy miracles do all the work for us. He exists to attempt to guide us back to the relationship we had with him that was lost in Eden. If he does all the work for us it's not much of a journey.

For the Christian world view, trespassing into the world of sin is to refuse to acknowledge god's existence, which is an insult to him as much as the person trespassed upon. He needs an apology too (apparently he's a very forgiving guy who is easily offended).

*deep breath* YOu had such a long post it took me forever to read and think it over XD.

 

Three Persons, one God.

 

I think it's perfect. My God not only loves me so much that He would die for me, He actually did.

 

Not trying to start a fight, this has learning intentions in it.
I'm going to pose a question on you:

Why does Christianity say their religion is about God, but all I ever hear about is Jesus?
About how Jesus saved them.
Didn't God save you as well?
Another question:

Do you really believe in you religion? Have you ever listen to the pastor speak before? Did it sound like different words?

Another question:

Why do you put faith in a man who died 2,000 years ago with the notion he was parting our sins? Did he even know that we would commit sins 2,000 years later?

 

Well, if you believe Jesus is God, then there's really no problem there, right? For us, it's not like Muslims putting Mohammed on the same level as Allah; for us, they are one.

I don't understand this question, but I do believe what my religion teaches, and I do go to church.

He came for our salvation; whether we choose to follow Him and do as He says or not is up to us. We have to actively and continually choose Him, though; love is not love without free will.

 

That isn't what I hear from most Christians they say they are two different people and get upset at me.

I mean have you listen carefully to your preacher, have you gone past the awe of your religion to really hear it?
I have went to a couple of churches to do a little experiment, I was a little surprised the preacher was saying the same thing over and over again. Just rephrasing it in different ways. All of the preachers did it to the churches I went to. And I was like, how come people buy into this?

But how did he know people 2,000 years needed salvation?

 

Though when you count in the fact of the resurection and that god can't truly die, then he didn't die for anyone. Also, why would he overcomplicate things like that? Why would he need to have his son (possibly himself included) sacrificed in order for him to forgive us?

 

Three divine Persons, one God. There's boatloads of theology on this, but unfortunately that hasn't made it any easier to understand. It's strange, I know.

Some preachers are better at what they do than others, but if the religion's not for you, then how good they are isn't going to make that much difference.

Sure. He's God. Until the end, as long as there are people, there will be a need for salvation.

 

God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. All different manifestations of the same thing. All existed at creation, and exist now. Jesus didn't "come into being" any more than God did, he was simply God in human form. You can't apply a linear sense of time to something outside time and space, it just doesn't work. Thus you can't argue that Jesus came into being as such, because he is God. He was just God, who came to earth in the form of a human, and for our sins. That's how I understand it, anyway.

 

like what was said, 3 Persons 1 God. i dont know why the christians you asked get upset at you. they are supposed to explain it to you patiently. like i said earlier, you can look at it as God being the government of all creation, and the members of this government is the Father, Jesus, the Holy Ghost.

well the reason why the pastor said the same thing over and over again... first is even though people have the head knowledge they dont apply it, hence we need reminders. of course, churches have visitors, and this heard-before-sermon can be used as teaching materials for the newcomers who never heard of it before.

well people are the same 2000 years ago and now. if people can sin 2000 years ago you can be sure people will sin 2000 years later. and also, He knows everything.

well Jesus is like a bridge linking us to God. we need to go through Him before we can be together with God again, because He provides the way. you see, it has been a tradition for people to offer sacrifices of animals when they sin. blood has to be shed. but we are humans and we let animals pay the debt for us. that is not enough. God wants to save us. so Jesus, the one without sin, is fit to take away our sins. so when His blood was shed, the wrath of God was satisfied.

one of the central teachings of christianity, other than love, is the resurrection of the dead. we know we are going to die one day. and God has proved to us He can ressurect us from the dead, and gain a new life in heaven.

no God was not complicating things. you see Jesus not only died so that His blood can pay the debt for us, He lived on earth for roughly 33 years. throughout the years He lived as a human, He experienced every kind of temptations and emotions, trails and tribulations a human can experience. hunger, grief, living under dictatorship, poverty...etc He gone through it all.

so we have a Lord who understands us perfectly well, not only in head knowledge but also having first hand experiences Himself. when we have troubles, only people who have gone through it can fully understand how we feel. Jesus understands. so, His coming to earth was not in vain, because He is also trying to help us, if only we allow Him to.

hope that answers the questions... (meh, i was away for a few hours and this many posts came out)

 

But Jesus is God, and Jesus really died. And not only did He die, He actually suffered. That's what's so cool to me. He actually suffered just as much as any of us would have had we gone through the same experience, and suffered in all the ways we do. Pain, poverty, abandonment, humiliation, even fear of death; He went through it all. Not because He "had to", but because He chose to. It was done for love. The cross is, in my opinion, the greatest model for love that a human being can possibly look to.

EDIT: Oh, hey, Ning already answered this one.

 

PLAGIARISM!! right after my post too! hahahax.

i hope forkfoot and i as well as the others answer many of the questions you all have.... but if any of you have any more questions feel free to ask. i will try to answer them as best as i can...

 

This should become the motto of all religions around the world lol

The trouble with God is, he is imaginary, and is limited only by the people who believe in him's imagination. If we come to the conclusion that we cannot see him, that doesnt mean he's not there, it means he's invisible. If we come to the conclusion that there is no trace of him in the universe, it doesn't mean he's not there, it means he's untraceable. If we come to the conclusion that his existence, or at least his existence in the form that most people believe, is impossible, it doesn't mean he's not there, it means he exists outside any sort of logic or sense that could make something impossible.

I have never seen any abstract arguments for God that i think could possibly convince anyone that God is real - they all only seem to work if you presuppose God exists. Though i did see one piece of real - not philosophical or anything - evidence, that made me think long and hard, though i was eventually able to refute it. But apart from that one thing, God doesn't exist seems to win out every time over God does exist (without any presuppositions of course).


But even without getting into any of these circular philosophical things, my reason for believing there is no God is extremely simple - he is something that was simply made up, and his only piece of credibility was that he was made up a long time ago. Once you take a step back and realise that, actually seriously considering that God might be actual is as laughable as giving serious consideration to the Invisible Pink Unicorn or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or my personal favourite, the Computer Simulated Reality).

 

Yeah, that why I said faith is the eternal catch-22. You can't argue god logically as anyone who believes him him will tell you he makes no sense logically. So when the believer tries to come up with an explanation, the only ones they can reach are A. Logic is wrong, or B. Logic isn't going to solve this particular problem. For some reason with the religious already reaching that conclusion others seem to have an impulsive need to disprove him logically, which they're free to do, but ultimately will not solve the question of his existence.

God either exists or he doesn't, and no one down here is really going to be able to prove it either way. Gonna have to wait till you kick the bucket to figure that crap shoot out XD ***Looks at death clock*** 54 more years .

 

silver random,
your reasoning is a lot like Hegel, the philosopher who denied the existence of God.

well, for all religion, chrisitanity included, faith is the absolute requirement. thats why people ask, 'what is your faith?' instead of 'what is your logic/theory?'

we don't see God, because well, He is too holy for us to see. well i myself could not apply science and logic to religion, and while we are debating about credibility, we are using our own limted and finite logic to explain God, who is way beyond our wisdom and understanding.

i know this might sound ridiculous to non-believers, but i have experienced personally myself the grace and the help of God. that is why i believe.

you know the person who wrote the song 'Amazing Grace'? he was once a non-believer and a slave trader. yet he became a christian. i could not think for any reason why he would suddenly 'imagine' God to be in his heart, and give up the lucurative trade he was in. it is because he experienced God first hand.

 

I don't know why so many people make such a big deal about being atheists. They still need to find some rational response to the human condition; saying "I don't believe in God" is simply ruling out one set of paths. They still need to find some course of action, some way in which to spend their time here.

We plop out sticky, bloody and confused. We look around and go "Hey, what the hell am I doing here? Where should I be? What should I do?", only to find no one has any concrete answers that satisfy them on every level of their intellect.

Personally, I looked around for the folks who really seemed at peace with their place in the world, who really seemed to know what they were doing. The saints, the sages, the Gandhis of the world, were the ones whose lives inspired me & made me go "Hey, I want that. I wonder what they're doing that makes them so?" and always found that it was some type of religion. Took a few years, but I finally settled on one.

An atheist is just someone who has ruled out religion and spirituality as a means for resolving their existence. It still needs resolvin'. We're really not all that different.

 

Sorry, but that is not the case.

I am an atheist. I was raised Protestant, and it was during Confirmation classes that I had my epiphany.

I believe in the randomness of the universe, and I find my comfort in knowing that when bad things happen, I don't have to sift my conscience to decide what I am being punished for. When I'm in a crisis, I don't call to a higher power to extricate me. I take my own actions, and I take responsibility for the outcomes.

I don't need a higher power to tell me what kinds of actions serve the greater good, and which actions are destructive. My moral compass is pretty consistent in seeking its North Pole. Religion may be the messenger of morality, but it is not the source of it. Morality is a framework upon which religion has been built.

Everyone - atheist, agnostic, monotheist, polytheist alike - has a belief system based on some foundation of faith. The main difference is the degree to which we anthropomorphise the fundamental foundations of that faith.

 

I used to often question religion, and what it was all about.

My enlightenment was very simple:

I took the letter 'O', which from where I come from, is a mnemonic of understanding, and inserted it between the letters 'O' and 'D' in GOD.

I looked up the resulting word in the dictionary, and there I found my path of righteousness.

 

i believed you want to say G?

i don't get what you mean. how do you get a path of righteouness from the dictionary?

 

No, I believe he is transforming God into Good (although I had to read it a couple of times to pick up on it).

And I think that the O represents a circle, in turn symbolizing completion and understanding.

Am I close?

 

no he means the letter 'D' that's what all religious people are to me

 

oh wait i read it wrong as well so much for my joke

 

@Cogito:
religion is not about morality alone. for those of us who do not believe that science and logic could satisfy our spiritual needs, we turn to God. what is our purpose of life? what is going to happen to me when i die? why is my life like that? logic cannot answer that. moral values cannot answer that. but God can, at least to me.

@Parkinson
doing good = righteousness?

@PrincessGarnet
D? sorry i don't get it.

 

Bang on the nail.

(Maybe that's the wrong choice of words in this case.)

 

Is this rather obsessive thread contributing to anyone's writing? Has it sparked ideas for anyone? Has it made any single member of this forum walk away from the computer and go, "Aha! Now I know what to write!"