The Point of View questions thread

Discussion in 'Point of View, and Voice' started by SB108, Jul 8, 2007.

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  1. AkaHeisenberg

    AkaHeisenberg New Member

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    Thanks alot that makes a lot of sense, but can that be done in the first person present tense point of view? If I was to use that narrative summary would the summary then become third person? I have it all here in my head but trying to put it down on paper is where I'm struggling. The change from dream to reality to my characters story he's writing is difficult to maintain. I could see how third person would make it easier but because my character is dealing with inner conflict I feel first person present puts the reader in his exact shoes as it all unfolds. Thank you for your help
     
  2. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    No, you can just switch the pronouns and tenses. So my example would read like:

    "I am late and my boss chews me out again. They start the meeting without me and make me stay late to finish the paperwork. I have to skip lunch and by the time I get home dinner has eluded me too. And the dog has pooped on the rug. And I am out of beer."

    Uh, yeah, haha... don't take this the wrong way, and I am by no means attempting to talk you out of anything, but what you described as a blending of dream, reality, and a book your MC is writing sounds extremely difficult, even for a veteran writer. If you're new to the craft I would suggest that you just get used to your tenses and wordplay and learn what you do well and what you need to work on before you try to ride a tricycle up Mt. Everest. But I know you have an idea in your head you want to get out, which is how all of us got started. So stone the crows!
     
  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You can do it in first person present and use narrative summary and transition from event to event:

    I have a horrible day. The boss schedules me for six extra appointments, the dogs growl at me, the cats scratch me, and we discover that one of the dogs doesn't have his shots, so tomorrow I will have to go to the emergency room to talk about rabies.

    Two subway rides and a half-mile walk later, I get home. Finally. I open the door and stare dumbfounded at what I find.

    You can insert first person past sometimes into a book that is primarily first person present--since the "now" could be seen to be looking at the past:

    I had a horrible day. The boss scheduled me for six extra appointments, the dogs growled at me, the cats scratched me, and we discovered that one of the dogs doesn't have his shots, so tomorrow I will have to go to the emergency room to talk about rabies.

    Two subway rides and a half-mile walk later, I get home. Finally. I open the door and stare dumbfounded at what I find.

    You can use close third--there's absolutely no requirement to use either first person, or present, in a thriller. Absolutely none. So if you're more comfortable writing with third or past or both, learning how close third person works would probably be an easier learning experience.

    Joe had a horrible day. The boss scheduled him for six extra appointments, the dogs growled at him, the cats scratched him, and the receptionist discovered that one of the dogs didn't have his shots, so tomorrow he would have to go to the emergency room to talk about rabies.

    Two subway rides and a half-mile walk later, he got home. Finally. He opened the door and stared dumbfounded at what he found. What the hell did Sandra do? The floor was covered in birdseed, the dog was napping on the table in a bed of Doritos, and was that silly string on the ceiling fan?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  4. AkaHeisenberg

    AkaHeisenberg New Member

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    Thank you, you've been very helpful. I know it's not going to be easy but I have no problem with failing, it's just been on my list of things I've always wanted to try and that's all I really want. :)
     
  5. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    My current with is first person POV from the two main characters, mostly because they're always talking through the events as I work and I would like the readers to see that. One is self righteous and a bit hard-headed, the other is timid and had a background of abuse, so through the story they'll meet in the middle.

    I like both of they're written well, first is a good if you want to show how their mental state changes over the course of the story, but this is much better if your main cast is more than two, maybe three characters.
     
  6. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    I have four MCs and I'm having a tough time deciding where the focus should be.

    Because of this POV changes every 1000 words or so. Is this too often?
     
  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    That feels pretty quick to me. I can't say for sure, but I think there's value in staying with the same character for at least the entire scene, and most of my scenes are significantly longer than 1K words, so...
     
  8. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I usually say that anything can work given the right story and set-up, but honestly those do seem like fairly short sections to me. It seems like it's more a symptom of you not knowing where to focus, though, so I'd consider that more than whether or not the sections are long enough. Do all four mcs need to be pov characters at all? Are there times where you could just as easily have stuck with one, and switching to the next wasn't really necessary?

    If they're all in different places, I would think that switching that frequently could be jarring (this is kind of a pull, but if you saw Rogue One, I remember it switching around a lot early on, and it just made things feel disjointed and made it difficult to know what I should be paying attention to / getting attached to. You don't want that kind of thing). If they're all in the same place, why do you need to swap around? They're all experiencing the same things. Ditto if they're split into two or three groups.

    My wip has two pov characters and I try to plan ahead and know whose head I want to be in for whatever's coming up. I try to make it so each pov section - which is usually each chapter, as well - has a distinct climactic event and a reason why we were in that character's head for it. I think there should always be a reason why you're in a given character's head at a given time, and I don't see adequate reasons popping up every 1k. I guess it does depend on your pace, but I'd still think switching that frequently would be jarring.
     
  9. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    I should probly make them longer.

    They are all in the same place. The purpose of it is a bit hard to explain but I'll give it a shot.

    They are war vessels for Demons. Angels are semi-omnipresent and could or could not be listening at any given moment. Each of them knows different parts to the larger whole of the story, one of them is entirely clueless. They cant talk to each other in conventional ways so I'm using the POV swap and internal dialogue to tell each part, essentially.

    BUT. This might be a problem once its all established and they all know what there is to know. At that point I'm sure I'll just be swapping for the sake of it, but by then, pace will be set.
     
  10. EFF_FireFly

    EFF_FireFly New Member

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    While I'm not one to judge writing styles, I feel like swapping POVs for the sake of swapping would get ... boring isn't the right word, but it might lose the interest of your reader. There should be a reason the POV swaps.

    Ps. If they are all in one place, working towards a specific goal, then how do they keep from confusing each other? Or giving clues to the Angels because they don't know what's secret about the knowledge each of them keeps? That being said, I imagine them on a road trip, heading towards a goal and a final confrontation. Alternatively, your four MCs could all b working in the same place but in different jobs, in which case even knowing each other isn't necessary for the plot.

    I do, however, suggest finding something about each POV that they retain relevance to the plot of your story as a whole instead of becoming a trite little narrative tool.
     
  11. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    Essentially all of it is a big no no for open conversation. One of them knows almost everything, two know some of it, one knows literally none of it and has no idea why shes there. They cant openly tell the new girl anything.

    They can somewhat communicate through art, poetry and music. Angels don't like/cant understand it.

    They are all working different pieces, they sometimes collaborate but it's mostly my puppet master MC saying, 'This needs doing,' Without much or any explanation.

    Each POV is at this point really exciting me. It's working so beautifully but by the time they all know whats going on, I'm afraid it will turn into a 'trite narrative tool'. I don't want to sacrifice it because it solves a lot of problems with writing such a difficult plot.
     
  12. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I just read an unpublished book with two POV characters where the POV changes rapidly - every 1,000 words or less. I didn't like it at all. I could never settle into either character's head. It broke immersion, and I love to be immersed into a story.

    I generally keep to one POV per chapter (2,500-4,000 words). Sometimes I change it with scenes (1,500+ words) but sparingly, and mostly during fast-paced parts of the story.
     
  13. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    Thank you. I do plan to extend, I've got a skeleton going at the moment, like always.

    Some people say they've got too many words in their manuscript. Baffles me how.
     
  14. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Just to clarify, 2,500-4,000 is the length most of my chapters come out at. I didn't mean that's the right length for anybody else's chapters. :D
     
  15. Apollypopping

    Apollypopping Member

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    Mine are sitting at 800 words at best. Two short for a pov swap I think.
     
  16. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Contributor Contributor

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    I'm trying to understand exactly when a POV changes and how to avoid doing so, while also showing the reader what is happening. I try to refrain from posting my novel, but I figure a snippet won't hurt. This probably needs some editing as I've only gone over it once, but this is the best example I have to show right now. It's a scene where two of the MC's are meeting for the first time, and I'm not entirely sure if I'm switching POV mid paragraph here or not:
    There at the end, it describes what the boy is seeing. On its face this seems like a POV change, but at the same time I feel like it's merely describing what he's seeing, not exactly what he's thinking or feeling. I know that it's a bit confusing as to who's who in that second paragraph, but it makes a lot more sense when it's not ripped out of a scene like this. Anyway, is this a viewpoint change, or am I just confused and overthinking things?
     
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    It's definitely a viewpoint change. That is, the following is in the boy's POV:

    "seeing a weathered, middle-aged man knelt down in front of him. Agnar’s kind, yet stern, face staring back."

    It doesn't matter that it doesn't include the boy's thoughts--it's still from his POV. Agnar can't see his own face, and Agnar in this moment is unlikely to be thinking, "I am a weathered, middle-aged man. I have a kind, yet stern face."
     
  18. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Yes it seems like a POV change their at the end.
    All you need to do is not let other characters narrate
    mid MC's narration. So the boy cannot tell us what
    he is seeing, unless he speaks. Agnar is the MC,
    and should be the only narrating throughout
    and no one else can highjack it at any point.
    It is Agnar's POV, and no one elses.
     
  19. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Contributor Contributor

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    Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification there. So at what point is it okay to change viewpoint? Start of a chapter?
     
  20. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    There are published authors, some of them doing very well for themselves, who change POV within scenes with no real fanfare.

    But as a general rule one is expected to change at a natural breaking point - not necessarily a chapter break, but maybe a scene break or whatever.
     
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  21. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Chapter starts or after scene breaks are generally the best places to do it. There are some that do it at the start of new paragraphs.
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Yep, I've seen several who can get away with just a paragraph break, but that's a dance-on-a-tightrope that I wouldn't try myself.
     
  23. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Contributor Contributor

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    In other words, I'm gathering that I need to rewrite a few things in my first chapter.... *looks at ten different POV changes in five pages* Yeah, that's a mess.
     
  24. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Nora Roberts head hops like a boss in her books, and she's sold so many books she can use $100 bills for kindling. I never realized it before I started writing and was told it was A Bad Thing To Do, but now it drives me nuts when I read her stuff.
     
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  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    She's one of the ones I was thinking of, for sure.
     

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