The Point of View questions thread

Discussion in 'Point of View, and Voice' started by SB108, Jul 8, 2007.

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  1. Earp

    Earp Contributor Contributor

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    Simpler than you were looking for, maybe, but:


    Using a first-person narrator is simply a matter of hearing the voice inside your head.

    - James Lee Burke
     
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  2. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    This could really be done to a matter of opinion but my advice would be.

    As a total beginner, I would encourage you to try and read some good quality material in first person. I was advised to read a least ten books in first before writing in it, then ten books in third. The lady who gave me this advice was a book doctor and rather a perfectionist.

    Remember to see through the eyes of your character, not let it become the other way around. Some people write in first and just pretend they are the character, which may work well for that character, but after writing a few books, what happens is, all their characters essentially become the same person because they are all the writer.

    Develop and interesting and strong voice.

    Study it. You have information right at your finger tips. So use Google and do some research of your own. Read articles, make notes and discover for yourself what should be avoided and what should be done. Doing your own research into something is much more beneficial than asking others. It'll teach you more
     
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  3. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    Avoid a lot of I's. I did this, I saw that, I thought this, I like this. It gets really monotonous. You can do it for the first draft because it's almost unavoidable starting out but then on your second draft find ways to angle some of the sentences to remove the filter.

    What makes the writing good - is understanding your character. Being in the I pov positions your reader in the place of the mc so if you can describe his desires, his urgency, his goals, his frustrations, that is going to give the pov it's energy. Utilize the five senses.

    Create a tone - tone is going to help you keep the sentences angled so you can avoid a lot of I's. Instead of your mc saying - I saw that dumbass, Elliot, coming across the schoolyard - you can write -- Here comes that dumbass, Elliot. It eliminates an I and creates a tone.

    Bad writing is usually fixable so don't worry too much about that now. Just check out books who utilize this pov, take special notice of scenes you like and break them apart to see how they managed it.
     
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  4. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    Step 1) Get writing...
    Step 2) ... as a matter of fact, it's the same as step one... "Get writing!"
    Step 3) How about that? It's also "Get writing." But I'm saying this with a purpose. It's to help you get to know yourself as a writer. How your creative process is. How do you even like it. How much fun you're having. And that's important, especially for a beginner.

    But let's talk about 1st person perspective. I think the biggest thing about it is figuring out just how much your character should realistically know at any point in the story and make sure they only talk about what they know and what they think.
     
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  5. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

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    I wrote my book in first person and I struggled with a change in POV and having an important event to my plot happen outside MC ‘s POV.
    I like @peachalulu point of staying away from the personal pronouns to start a sentence. There are a lot of tricks to bury the I if need be, like: On the way there I went by his house.... There are a lot of prepositional phrases you can use sprinkled lightly in your work. Another thing—and this may be a no-no—is to use an adverb to start the sentence, like: Slowly I pushed her hair back...
    If you’re just starting out, it will be hard to eliminate the personal pronouns, but if you don’t lead every sentence with them, it will sound better when you read it back. I just pulled up my first chapter and the rough draft had over a hundred ‘I’ when it was released it only had fifty-three. If I wrote it now, I could probably cut that number in half. So write your piece, learn your graft and know we’re here to help you along.
     
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  6. Marthix2016

    Marthix2016 Banned

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    Male vs. Female Point-Of-View...ok let's settle this debate. I'm a male and I've been told many times if I'm writing a female lead character that I need my fellow female friends to read through it to make sure it "sounds like something a woman would do". I take a step back and think about that. Now what exactly would a female think about or how would her POV be any different from a male's? I honestly don't see how there's astronomically such a big difference. Men and women should dream and aspire to do or be anything they want to. A man can be a very nurturing person and a woman can be a very aggressive and violent person. Just saying I always scratch my head when someone thinks there's this MASSIVE difference between a male and female mindset if you were to take a character and swap genders on them. Discuss?
     
  7. OmniTense

    OmniTense Active Member

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    I have a work that I haven't made any significant progress on. I have the inspiration. I know where I'm going with it. I still feel passionate about it. And despite trying pantsing my way through it, which incidentally is something I'm working on fixing, because that's not working out for obvious reasons, I can't come to a major decision.

    At it's heart it's a murder mystery, an old-style whodunnit. The important thing is it is going to be book one of what I hope will be a series someday. Previous masters of the genre are fans of 1st person, electing a side-character assistant to the detective and telling it from that perspective. They make great use of this character as a lens to view the extraordinary abilities of the main detective.

    My issue with this is that I have other characters I want to introduce and outside events I want to establish...but I'd still love to have that window in my narrator character's head.

    This has ground all work on my book to a shrieking grinding halt and I cannot get through this. It's worse than writer's block, imho. I know what I want to do in the plot and character development but I can't get past this!

    Any help, criticism or observations anyone can offer are all-important to me now.

    -SIN
     
  8. SethLoki

    SethLoki Retired Autodidact Contributor

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    You might want to investigate 'close third' pov. That and some deft use of 'italics for thoughts'*. <-- With those, I think you ought to have the tools to accomplish the intimate, in the mind, stuff as well as the more omni level of storytelling.

    * Some people aren't fans of of this, but if you do it infrequently and do it well you'll win them over.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  9. OmniTense

    OmniTense Active Member

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    I have considered this and, to be fair to it, it's the one method I haven't actually tried yet. I'm not looking down on it at all, but I'm not sure it's something I would be very...good at? I don't know, definitely not in my comfort zone, but I'm so desperate at this point, I'm not beyond trying something even though I don't think I would be good at it.

    I just feel like I would either under-use the "italics for thoughts" to the point it would feel awkward, or alternatively, over-use them so much that it would be annoying.

    -SIN
     
  10. davcha

    davcha Banned

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    Do you think it's absolutely necessary that the character telling the story past tense and in 1st person has to be in some kind of context ? For example, take Name of the Wind. Kvothe is telling his story retrospectively from a tavern. So his present exists somewhere in the future of his past.

    Not sure if I'm being very clear here...
     
  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    No, it’s not necessary (if I understand what you mean). There are first person novels where the narration goes right to to the death of the narrator, so it can’t possible be a past recollection of events. It’s just a stylistic device. You can set it up as a past recollection, or not.
     
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  12. M.A.

    M.A. Member

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    If you write a book in thirst person limited, is it okay to have an omiscient POV in just the first paragraph of the first chapter? On the one hand I think it's a nice way to introduce the world and narrow in on the character the reader will follow. On the other hand, it may give the wrong impression of how the story will be told.

    Does anyone have any thoughts, opinions or rules on writing to share about this topic?
     
  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Sure, it's fine to this what you like so long as you make it interesting and engage the reader. A potential worry about the way you describe this is that you could be heading for an infodump, but if it's a relatively short, engaging paragraph I don't think readers will have a problem if it is well done. I don't think it would be the first book to move from an omniscient POV to a closer one.
     
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  14. M.A.

    M.A. Member

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    I wouldn't say it's an infodump. It's a short paragraph that explains the setting in 2-3 sentences, then introduces the main character.
     
  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think that’s fine, personally.
     
  16. The Bishop

    The Bishop Senior Member

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    Is it plausible to have one character in my story written in first person and the rest written in third person limited? I have a character at the start of my story that is written in first person but dies off like fifty pages in. They're there for the sole purpose of setting up one of the main character's mentalities for the real story. I wrote them in first person because I really want to reader to feel close to them, and then they'll be shocked at the death and learn the stakes, and maybe something deeper that I'll need to figure out later. I see no issue with this whatsoever, but I'm worried that a reader might hate it. What would you think if you saw this in a story? Would it anger you or does it add a certain element that makes my story unique in a good way?
     
  17. Hammer

    Hammer Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I could certainly live with it. I think first is a difficult thing to pull off in a longer work, it gets quite... tiring. Too intense. Great for shorter works though, and can be very intimate if well executed.

    Do you think it might be an idea to have an early chapter in third to let the reader know that there are changes ahead and that you are playing with POV in this way?

    Virtuoso performer PG Wodehouse mixes and matches POV in this way in some of the "Jeeves" books and it doesn't take more than a few words to get your head around it.
     
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  18. The Bishop

    The Bishop Senior Member

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    It starts off with narration, unpopular but necessary in certain situations. So it needs to start first person. Plus he's the only character I can view from at that point. Anyone else would just be unneeded and out-of-place
     
  19. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I think 3rd lends itself well to complex plots, while character driven stuff is better in first.
     
  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Sure. There are books that do this. Honestly, you just have to write it and then ascertain how it works. None of these choices are bad or good, per se. It's only the execution that matters.
     
  21. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    First person can be very powerful, but you can mix POVs with it. Diane Gabaldon did it with Outlander. While probably 99% of her work is from Claire's POV, she does introduce other POVs (Jaimie's) as separate chapters in close third.

    Another alternative is to consider close third instead of first. That is my style and I have a bit more flexibility for narration. For example, a chapter can open in omni, providing a broad scene of what is going on for a paragraph or two, important for scene and POV shifts to establish when/where/who, then narrow the focus to close third. I use a lot of characters, and each gets a chance to take center stage as POV for a chapter, generally because they are not in the same place as the other characters, but doing something important for the story.

    Italics for thoughts is a judgement call. I reserve that for periods of high drama and emotion. The rest of the interior thoughts are handled by narration, thudding heart, breath stopping, hair on the neck, sweaty palms, limited to the POV. For the other characters in the scene, their emotions are limited to what the POV can observe. "He wondered if she was lying. She seemed nervous, clenching and unclenching her hands, avoiding his eyes." Anyway, good luck
     
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  22. Richach

    Richach Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    This is a tough question but the answers you provide may help lots of writers including myself. :)

    How do you change point of view. For example: You are writing multiple third person and you change point of view mid chapter. I understand the dangers of head hopping. What would I need to do to ensure the reader is happy and unbothered by the change?
     
  23. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I normally change on a scene break if its within a chapter... or just have short chapters.

    Head hopping is a much misunderstood term - it doesn't mean you can't shift viewpoint, the issue is where its not clear who's viewpoint the reader is in
     
  24. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    If I'm doing something full length I only change between chapters. With a shorter read/novella I did shifting POV more frequently. I'd only switch in a scene if something happened to disrupt the scene. For instance, doing something suspicious at home and then mom walks in. That's when I'd shift it. Not just in the middle of a scene for no reason. When I'm reading, if the POV shifts too much it distracts me from the story.
     
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  25. Richach

    Richach Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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