The reader and sexism

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Alesia, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    I know, like, a karateka disarming an assailant armed with a knife!

    j/k :D

    But yes, this is how some men work, and prefer to work too, and some women appreciate it. Faced with an armed opponent, I don't exactly mind if someone else takes care of him, that in itself isn't a sexist act towards me, but to deprive women of power so that they can't defend themselves, their loved ones, etc. is of course nuts.

    You should ask why they think she's too perfect and then decide does it make the character less credible then. I remember you mentioned in some thread that she's super skinny due to malnutrition (yet somehow maintained her cup-size despite the weight loss). Malnutritioned action heroes are in trouble when they lose their weapons cos fatigue's gonna hit at some point, plus their chances of muscling themselves out of the situation are smaller. Or perhaps they criticized your character's appearance? Which is quite silly because there're really beautiful people out there so why couldn't we also write about them (of course it might give the nay-sayers one more thing to whine about, besides, how realistic would it be if everyone was pretty and built like a supermodel?) However, I would shrug off criticism from people who have not read your work and take more seriously the feedback from people who've read it.
     
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  2. plothog

    plothog Contributor Contributor

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    That's pretty much what I understood a Mary Sue to be too. It's a thinly disguised ideal version of yourself. I can't say I know many women who's ideal version of themselves is a military woman. Maybe the panel imagine her as being surrounded by good looking soldier boys, all extremely thankful for making them better.
     
  3. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    That was nicely put. Furthermore, if we look at modern Western civilizations, especially areas where people are well (enough) off monetarily, so that their situation permits e.g. hobbies, I've come to think that some things are essentially civic duties, not because of the things in and of themselves, but because of the kind of world we live in nowadays. I mean things that are fairly simple to learn (yet require effort and dedication) and could very well save lives. E.g. being able to swim, knowing CPR, knowing how to defend yourself in a physical confrontation (and not just the physical side either, but understanding how to deal with aggressive people on a psychological level) etc. etc. Of course, I know not everybody shares this view, but when I think about it, I see little harm in developing those skills and plenty of benefits if push comes to shove: how many of us wouldn't feel incredible guilt if our kid fell out of a boat, into the water, and drowned because we couldn't swim? How many of us would feel guilt if our loved ones got hurt, one way or another, because of our lack of preparation?

    Then again, this can be a slippery slope: I've met people who share this kind of a "survivalist" mentality (many of them also individualists), who have lost sight of the big picture: they are preparing for the next world war, expending most of their capacity into guarding themselves against real or imagined dangers. However, I believe this can be avoided simply by looking at things from a practical standpoint: you don't have to be Michael Phelps to fish a kid from a river, you don't need to be Brock Lesnar to ward off a drunken jackass, and you don't need to move into a bunker to make your home safer.

    This may come off as off topic, but bear with me, I'm coming to it albeit in a roundabout way:
    In a society where men and women have what could be called "equal opportunity," at least on a practical level, I believe we should start veering towards a society where girls and boys would be brought up with the mindset that they can both be empowered, they can both be strong (mentally, physically, psychologically), and neither has to "accept" any given role that past societies have imposed on the two sexes: girls should be allowed to box, wrestle, and compete in sports if they so choose. Boys should be allowed to cry if they feel like it. Neither sex should be pressured into a predetermined mold, a role, if you will, that they are then expected to play for the rest of their lives. I think, as a civilization, we are beyond that point.

    I know we're already moving towards this direction, but our development could be a lot faster if we, as societies, finally dropped our prejudices and accepted that we're all people, not a race halved into 1st and 2nd class citizens.
    And if you skip a head in time, just a little bit, or alter the reality even slightly, you could very well write a society where physically capable, strong women wouldn't be seen as freaks or exceptions, but credible characters instead of 1:1 000 000 Mary Sues. This way you could reduce the risk of readers criticizing physical female characters while ignoring the strengths of their male counterparts.
    Sorry if this came off as preachy, sometimes that just happens with my streams of consciousness.
     
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  4. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

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    I've never had a female MC, but there's a major female character in my current work. I've only ran a few of their scenes past a couple dozen readers or so, but, so far, there's been no negative reactions to their sex. That said, though, she's not a feminist icon: she's deliberately attractive to men (not the 'perfect' ideal - far from it - but attractive nonetheless), does free-running, plays bass guitar, and has a lesbian relationship, etc. She's still feminine in her appearance, mannerisms, and social perspective, but personality-wise she could easily be one of the lads. If my book ever goes to print, I reckon I'm going to get quite a lot of stick from feminists for making her bi; looking back, it does seem like a pretty obvious ploy to bring in male readers where all the guns and violence failed. Whoops ;)
     
  5. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    Anything can be made to work if it's written well enough. I and KaTrian have wondered why many writers (be it books, films, or TV) usually combine a woman's "manly" interests with her being a lesbian (or at least bi), as if a straight girl couldn't be written credibly to like guns, combat sports/martial arts, lifting iron, the adrenaline rush of dangerous situations etc.

    One nice exception to this rule was George R. R. Martin's Brienne of Tarth. She essentially looked like a guy (tall, muscular, often teased for being ugly), bested most men in melee combat, and didn't care one bit for dresses, flowers, or napkin folding (and actually wore sensible armor instead of a mail bikini). Off the top of my head I can't think of other similar characters in published works since it also seems that if there are characters like that in stories, they are often small, skinny, beautiful, yet about as destructive as a small army, i.e. her physique doesn't match her capabilities.

    This is common even in stories with, say, swords which level the field somewhat; I've spoken with women who've competed in longsword events (one even won the tournament), and even though both were pretty "big" (something like 5'10 / 150lbs, low bodyfat %), both said that when they fight men, they have to adjust their game a bit, just like a smaller guy has to adjust his tactics against some meat mountain 2-3 times his size, but sword fantasies often lack this little detail which I find regrettable, being a devout fan of realism.

    Of course, if the lesbian warrior is what serves the story best and inspires the author, that's what the story needs, but I'm just wondering about the reasons behind the large numbers of gay women in stories that include fighting females as well as the apparent rarity of their straight counterparts.
     
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  6. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Haha, probably, but if you've done it blatantly enough instead of pretending it's like so totally not there for the sake of bringing in male readers (and pushing off straight female audience, maybe), you'll just seem honest :D Besides, feminists should be happy that a representative of the female sex and a less privileged one at that is included into a story... even if it's written by a man.

    Anyway, I think if something like that fits the character, why not do it, screw what others think. It's kind of silly only when the writer thinks a woman is not credible as "one of the lads" if she's not a bi/gay to boot or if they think the story won't be interesting or hip enough if it doesn't contain a pretty, bisexual woman. The same goes with the OP, so he may have created a controversial character, maybe that's a good thing, it piques people's interest.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013

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