Things you'd like to see more of in Fantasy.

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by X Equestris, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Oh definitely, I'm just saying that-

    Huh.

    So if I wrote a story and my cast of characters happened upon a random blind Hindu boy, you're not going to think I just shoved him in there for the sake of it? I guess what I was trying to say was that diversity is fine, but don't put things in your story just for the hell of it. Let your diverse cast feel real, like they actually belong to the story and setting beyond 'Woo! Look at me, I'm diverse!!'

    Other than that, I agree. Saying that you can't have a black MC because of reasons that shouldn't pertain to your story is bull. It's fantasy! Do whatever you want.
     
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  2. Acanthophis

    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    Link and I were more going on about the supposed racism in general. Excluding a group to pretend you're being historically accurate isn't racist, but it's definitely stupid. Although it does depend on the authors personal beliefs.
     
  3. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    It's not about whether any one story is exclusively about straight white men.

    It's about the insistence that all/most stories should be exclusively about them, that the idea of dragons and unicorns is less unbelievable than the idea of people who are not straight white men.

    Authors who go to great lengths to take characters that "shouldn't" be straight white men, but who turn them into straight white men anyway, don't get nearly as much anger as authors who do the inverse.
     
  4. ManOrAstroMan

    ManOrAstroMan Magical Space Detective Contributor

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    Kind of going with above posts, a fantasy world not ripped off from Tolkien would be great. Fictionalized Italy or Egypt or Jamestown settlement would be interesting.
    Maybe stories without kings or princesses or evil overlords. You can have a great story taking place all within the boundaries of a small rural county.
     
  5. Acanthophis

    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    @Simpson17866 Hey, I actually do agree with you on the matter (although in one of my previous posts it may have come off as aggressive, if so, it wasn't my intent). I just disagree with it being classified as racism. Trying to be historically accurate (for lack of a better word) is not necessarily racist itself, but if your reasons for being historically accurate is that you don't want to write about blacks, or browns, or any other group than your own, than it is racist.

    Discriminatory words are thrown around way too much nowadays, to the point where people are afraid of not choosing the perfect sequence of words. There really is a difference between discriminatory behaviour and just using a word others use to discriminate. Alec Baldwin yelled "faggot" (or fag) at someone a few years ago, and he got crucified by the media and portrayed as a homophobe, despite being an activist in the LGBT community. False accusations do have consequences. Attitude and behaviour are very different things, someone may appear racist, but they may not be.
     
  6. KhalieLa

    KhalieLa It's not a lie, it's fiction. Contributor

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    Thank you!!! Beautifully put.


    Of course you can make up your own. I would have no problem with Zaphod Beeblebrox being black, or even purple for that matter. However, actual Betelgeusens (should there be any) may find the concept of Zaphod Beeblebrox offensive regardless of what color you write him.

    On the other hand, Stephen Lawhead did a wonderful job of combining Celtic Mythology, Christianity, and archaeology in his portal fantasy series, Song of Abion. It was titillating for those who actually study the mythologies and cultures of the time to see him accuratly representing the sidhe, use of torcs, election of kings, hunting of aurochs, etc. in his books. It would seem silly to include a bunch of minority characters simply for the sake of wanting more minorities.

    Henceforth shall we claim that Odin was a great big black dude, Freyja was an Asian woman, and since Loki pretty much takes on the role of Coyote, make him Native American, all because there are too many white people in Norse Mythology? Imagine the implications of that for Viking based fantasy? We could have a bunch of big, burly, black men raping and pillaging as they rampaged the country side--How well do you think that would go over with the African-American community?
     
  7. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    I kind of subscribe to the idea that shoe-horning in all ethnicities, orientations and disabilities in order to fill quotas or tick boxes is bloody stupid. We have all seen those corporate photos where there are a bunch of people in suits, the white woman next to the black man, next to the Asian woman, next to the wheelchair user, and they are all pouring over some building plans wearing hardhats or some such shit? They are just moronically PC... that particular variety of PC that goes full circle back to offensive... Look, people in wheelchairs can do this job to! Hooray for wheelies.

    If you have an interesting character that happens to be a minority and organically fits into the structure of your work, then great; if you shoe-horn in a minority because you think those minorities need to be represented more often, and it is your place to give them the coverage they are so lacking... then I would imagine you are not the person to be giving them coverage. Your book is likely to be all about their differences; some fawning tear-stained diatribe on the hardships they suffer, rather than a character fulfilling a role in a piece of work.
     
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  8. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    I would like to see something more like David Lynch.
    No other worlds, no other alien races or creatures, no standard magic. I love how he turns the ordinary into something horrifying and fantastical.
     
  9. ManOrAstroMan

    ManOrAstroMan Magical Space Detective Contributor

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    The thing about existing mythology, though, is they are *existing*. They're pretty much set in stone. (Though the notion of the gods of different pantheons being the same beings under different names is an interesting one.)
    What we're talking about is fantasy creations from your own imagination.
     
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  10. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Except that people don't generally complain about "shoehorning" non-minorities in exactly the same way.
     
  11. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    THANK YOU! THANK YOU!! That's what I'm trying to say! It's perfectly fine to add different groups of people into your story, they just have to feel genuine. Me tossing in a blind Hindu boy randomly just to fulfill some sort of quota would be more offensive, I think, then if I just hadn't included him at all. He would need to feel genuine, like he actually belongs there. And, more importantly, that he's much more than just a blind Hindu boy. He's the guy who likes to grab his cane and bawl into it like it were a microphone in the middle of his family's ice cream shop, he's the guy who likes sports and follows sports bulletins like there's no tomorrow. He's the sympathetic guy who listens and gives support to a friend in need. He's not the 'poor, poor widdle blind Hindu boy'. He's...just like any other person in that setting. He just happens to be blind, a Hindu, and from India.

    That's what I was trying to say. Make them a character who just so happens to be of minority. Yes, the hardships can be noted, but the character should be so much more than the thing that makes them different. I'm hearing-impaired, so would I want a book where the only thing discussed about a hearing-impaired character is how oh-so-hearing-impaired he is? How difficult his life must be because his hearing is shit? NO! I'd want to read about a character who just happens to have hearing problems!

    And if you don't include it, that doesn't make it a slam against the group. I don't bawl and get uppity over the tenth-millionth book or video game to not feature hearing impaired people. It'd be nice, sure, but I honestly am not going to consider it an attack on me if there isn't a hearing-impaired person in the book.

    Personally, if you're just going to add a character who is of a different group than your own just so you can fawn over how different they are, how difficult it must be to be them, then I strongly suggest you leave that character out because you're just hurting that group more than you are helping them.

    Hope I made myself clear, everyone in the thread. :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  12. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I find this talk of "shoe horning" minorities in really odd. How many characters have to be white to fulfil their purpose in the story? In a made up world... absolutely none. And in a non-made up world... yeah, I'm struggling to find a reason. So the idea that it would need to be a deliberate, calculated act to include non-white people is bizarre.

    There are people of different races in my (non-fantasy) story. I didn't set out to do it; it's just how I imagined them in my head. I don't know why anyone's would be different unless they had a subconscious (or conscious) idea that white is the default and anything different has to be different for a reason.
     
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  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    @Tenderiser yeah, people assume that if you have non-white or LGBT characters, for example, that you're shoe-horning or forcing them into the story. All that indicates is that for those people, white heterosexual characters are the default, which is problematic thinking in my view. You don't need a reason for white characters, but if you have non-white characters they can't just be your characters, they have to have a special reason for being of that race. Really? Makes no sense.
     
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  14. KhalieLa

    KhalieLa It's not a lie, it's fiction. Contributor

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    Not even remotely true.

    Pre-Christian Norse Myth: Freyja and Freyr get fostered in the Asgard and each take a spouse (Freyja with Odr and Freyr with Gerd) creating a poly-amourous and incestuous relationship. Odr is often away, Freyja misses him, cries golden tears of sorrow and takes comfort among other gods. Loki taunts her saying she's slept with every god in Asgard and Odin tells him to stuff it because it's completely OK for a woman to have a lovers aside from her husband.

    Post-Christian Norse Myth: Freyja and Freyr get fostered in the Asgard and each take a spouse (Freyja with Odr and Freyr with Gerd). Odr is often away, so Freyja takes comfort from among other gods. Loki taunts her saying she's slept with every god in Asgard and brings Odr home where they catch her "astride" her brother. Odr sends her away for immoral behavior and cries golden tears of shame.

    So what is the next version?

    There is quite a bit of good archeological research on this topic. I just finished a book relating the Norse/Germanic/Celtic Gods and of course most of the Celtic Gods have already been linked to Roman Gods, who have been likened to Greek Gods.

    People have the same needs the world over so many of the gods have similar aspects.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  15. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    No, the point was that when they are shoe-horned it is a problem, when they are an organic part of the story, that is fine. That is a different premise to "people assum[ing] that if you have non-white or LGBT characters, for example, that you're shoe-horning or forcing them into the story". I don't think people do assume this, unless they clearly are shoe-horned or forced.
     
  16. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    How do you determine if they've been shoe horned or forced?
     
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  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I agree with the first part of the statement, but not the latter. I've had enough conversations on this topic in relation to fantasy literature that I can tell you there are plenty of people who assume the characters is shoe horned or chosen for some other reason than being an organic part of the story.

    Also, you then have to define what makes a characters an organic part of the story. My current MC is black. You could make her white and it wouldn't impact the story itself. Is she organic if white, but not if black? How do you distinguish the two. Why aren't the reasons for making her white good enough when it comes to making her black? The idea that you need some separate justification seems odd to me.
     
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  18. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    How about they do all the same stuff but they're black?
     
  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Ninjae'd by @Tenderiser :D
     
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  20. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    No, my MC is colourless... their race matters a whole lot less than their environment.

    I would contend that if a character feels shoe-horned or forced to an audience, then you have failed at making them an organic part of the story.
     
  21. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    How can they feel shoe horned or forced? I don't get it.
     
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  22. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    But can you define what makes them feel shoe horned versus organic?
     
  23. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    @Chinspinner

    to bring the issue more specifically to my work, I was told by one reader that since the story isn't impacted by my MC being black, she should be white. That's the kind of thing that doesn't make sense to me.
     
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  24. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    That's what I'm wondering myself with my hypothetical character I keep bringing up here. If any of you saw him in any of my stories, would you think him organic or shoe horned in to fill up a quota?
     
  25. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    This is a broad question that will vary from one piece of work to the next, but here are some examples: -
    • A character that is not fully fleshed out, but rather a stereotype of a particular group.
    • A writer assuming a universal black, gay, whatever experience rather than an individual character.
    • An unintentionally offensive portrayal that usually comes from a position of privilege.
    • Inserting minorities into locations, situations or times inaccurately (that minority maybe a black person in medieval England, or a caucasian in medieval China).
    • I will come back to this, but the list is long...
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015

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