I don't recall ever saying that first 'quote'. But I can agree with the basics of your last post - you take a chance on running into an agent who doesn't like prologues. But you take a chance of running into an agent who doesn't like some particular part of your story anyway - a type of character, a location, style, etc. All I'm saying is use whatever makes the story the best it can be in your (the author's) eyes, and don't not do something simply because some people won't like it. No one will ever write a book that everyone likes, especially that everyone likes every part of.
In my opinion, I feel that a Prologue is unnecessary and it can be used as chapter one, especially if it has a strong plot. I'd show the prologue. Other than that, I feel that a 10k prologue is too long, so long, even screenwriters might not write a scene in 10k if it is just a summary of what the story is about.
Yes, this is all true. We can't please everybody and we can't please all agents. Prologues are a risk. A necessary risk at times, but a risk. We just need to weigh that risk with extra caution. A prologue may be a chapter 0, but it's not a regular chapter. I'd say most prologues don't get to publication (they get cut out at some point), but obviously I can't say that for sure since I don't have anybody's story notes. And, no you didn't say the first quote word for word. I paraphrazed and may have inferred or extrapolated. Sorry if I got the intent wrong.
I figured I'd just pop my head in here to reply for a second. There are no universally accepted standards for what a publisher will and will not accept. There are no universal standards for what an author should and should not include in their works, even, simply because there is no single standard when it comes to publishing works.
Okay, trying again and hoping that the forum software and my browser won't go kiddy again and breed double posts... I've had no publisher, or agent so far tell me I can't write this or that. I write in a pretty much stylised genre, yet I've got away with lots of things that people agonise over as being the guarantee of a non-sell. Fact is, if the publisher rsp. the editor likes a story and your writing s/he won't reject you because you have a prologue. They'll tell you they want it, and next thing you know the editor simply states that it will be better without the prologue. Or that the prologue needs to be fixed. THAT is when you need to listen carefully, after they have bought it. And if your prologue works - like that fantastic exposition of the serial killer in Mermaids - it'll stay in, of that you can be sure. This discussion of prologue is a lot like the show vs. tell one. There simply is no single solution, no recipe one can adhere to and then everything will be right. That's because every story is different, and every's author's voice as well, and publishers have different tastes too.
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with those that say prologues are a bad idea. In almost every high fantasy book I have read there is almost always a prologue and or epilogue. And I enjoy them every time. I also feel that they are more frequently needed in high fantasy, you cant exactly just "sprinkle" the info into the book. Otherwise, the book would be three times longer if the information isn't summarized into a prologue and or epilogue. Plus, these kinds of books have huge worlds and back stories that need to be explained. In fact, I wish there was a prologue and epilogue for every book I read. I WANT to know what got us there and what happened after. But on the other hand, I can see where a prequel and or epilogue may not be needed for a non high fantasy fiction book. Edit: People also saying long prologues will never get published are wrong, I have personally read books with prologues longer than any chapter in the book. I am talking thousands of words and tens of pages. Again, detailed high fantasy has a lot of explaining to do. To put it in better perspective, I have recently read a prologue on my Kindle that was 10% of the entire book.
I think I'd agree with that. Prologues should be an intro of sorts, but more an enticement, a foreshadowing, something that sets up the reader to wonder what the significance is - or to know the significance of events in the main story which the characters don't. Very long prologues become much more than that - either a complete chapter or a prequel to the main story. I would think it would confuse the senses to get that far/deep into "a" story and then suddenly be brought out of it when the main story begins. I don't think I'd care for it, meself
It was a prologue, it just happens that in The Wheel of Time series there is sometimes upwards of a dozen different POV's and upwards of half a dozen story arcs going in one book. It is a massive world and story. So Robert Jordan had a lot of ground to cover with his prologues and his occasional epilogues -- it all depends on which book in the series. Also, I would argue word count doesn't make a prologue a prologue, it is content.
That may be true for book one in a series or a stand alone novel. But what I mentioned being a 10% prologue (actually I just doubled checked, it is 13%), was book ten in the series and needed to be there. The readers are already "enticed" being that many books in. With books like The Wheel of Time, you need to be brought up to speed with every entry, they are massive detailed books. You would be lost without them. And if he had put that information into the main portions of the books without summarizing them into prologues, the books would go from 300k - 400k words to easily 500k - 600k. Also just a side note, the first book in this series had a prologue of only 2%, the prologues grew and lessened in size as needed, they are not there just for the heck of it. To further clarify, there are so many story arcs and POV's happening at the same time that is is impossible to cover them all in one book, otherwise the books would be like I said, 600k+ words. So sometimes characters disappear for an entire book. The prologue covers what they had been doing and brings you up to speed before they are re-introduced. I also realize that this could easily be an isolated incident with the scope and scale of Robert Jordan's work, and not the normal run of things. My point was that anything can be done if it is done well, and that if someone wants to try something, I say try it. Otherwise you will never come into your own.
The thing is, is it really necessary to have the prologue that long when the information could easily be put into the first few chapters. I always find those enormous prologues hard to get through, especially as they always take place from the POV of secondary characters whose viewpoint we're probably not going to see again. ASOIAF did it better I feel, with the prologues setting up the action nicely.
Seems to me one would be better served to have a separate (and shorter) book dealing with the adventures of these missing characters, or include those adventures in 'current time' and again, make another book, rather than this huge 'prologue' to catch readers up. If their events were so noteworthy, a 'summing-up' of this nature seems rather strange. It would not be a method I would want to read, but - as always - to each his own.
Well, as you already know (I assume based off of your picture) most of the of the information normally is in the first few chapters, but not all of it. You know just as well as I do how giant the world is. Some of the POV's are in complete different time frames as well in some of the books. And honestly, I think it is needed. I still want to know what is happening in the whole world and not just with the main characters. It all adds to the depth of the story and its realism. I also believe it adds to the tension when knowing what secondary characters are thinking/doing, it keeps you guessing what could possibly happen next and if their choices are going to effect the main characters. I also think it is interesting seeing how wrong other secondary characters can be (the best example being Elaida, she is a moron and I love reading about just how much she is).
Sorry, I should have clarified more, I forgot that you have not read these books. I did not mean to imply that the missing characters are not included ever in the books outside of the prologue. When they disappear for a book, they come back in part of the prologue and then return in the main book and their missing story arc is told side by side the continuing of the main story arc. It is juggled by POV's. Also, this might make more sense to you, I don't know why I didn't say this sooner. But the prologues he writes could also be considered many small prologues in one. What I mean by that is each POV has its own separate prologue within the prologue, if that makes any sense. So if you think about it that way, it isn't one big 13% prologue. It is many different prologues for each POV.
This series is definitely not for the feint of heart or timid reader. But it actually is very easy to follow, if you start at book one of course.
This series sells oodles more books than I ever will. Whatever his logic, however long or convoluted his prologues, I'm not telling him to mess with his chi.
Well, I'm neither faint of heart nor a timid reader (I was reading high school level books in grade school), but I'm not a masochist either. That first book (and prologue) would have to be one humdinger before I'd spend much time on it. The back-and-forth and catching up would drive me bonkers. But as I say - to each his own.
No problem You're enthusiastic about the series, but it doesn't sound like my cup of tea - and that's what makes the world interesting.
Check out the Malazan books. I think they're even more complex. Probably the high-water mark of Fantasy world-building.
No problem. I love the series. But people seem to have a love or hate relationship with it. One reason is that Erikson often provides little or no backstory. The reader is thrust into the action, and in many instances you'll be as bewildered about what is going on as many of the characters are. But to me that makes it that much nicer when the pieces start to come together. Others I have known couldn't stand the feeling of not knowing everything that was going on.
