Transgender/transsexual testimonials

Discussion in 'Research' started by Annessa Jones, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Actually, I think the point has been made earlier in the thread that gender and sexual orientation are indeed two different things. However, reparative therapy has been advocated by some for both.

    Even if it worked, it would still be unethical. Forced sterilization works, but it is unethical.
     
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  2. MLM

    MLM Banned for trolling

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    By you.

    According to this, if someone feels trans at one point in their lives, it brands them permanently as such, and if later they stop feeling that way, their new feelings are "illegitimate", and if they want to be another way, they aren't being "true" to their "real", predetermined, self. This logic reminds me of gay people who feel guilt over feeling opposite sex attraction, obviously the other side of the coin of straight people feeling guilt over feeling same sex attraction.
     
  3. Hubardo

    Hubardo Contributor Contributor

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    There's a difference between an individual seeking treatment for something that causes them distress, and society pathologizing an identity and therefore causing or aggravating that distress. If your point is that regarding dysphoria as a disorder has the advantage of coming up with treatments for those suffering individuals, that makes some sense to me. But I think the bigger problem is a culturally imposed system of intolerance for gender identities that don't fall neatly into the binary system. There are and have been all kinds of alternative cultural views on gender (and sexuality) that welcome if not uphold people for not falling neatly into these categories. Ie, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender
     
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  4. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    @MLM - Please show me where I have suggested any obligation on anyone. The only obligation I see is to respect the personal choices that others make regarding their own lives.

    A person who feels trapped in the wrong body and who has chosen to live as a member of the other gender (despite the imperfections in the process) is highly unlikely to "stop feeling that way". From everything I've read, it appears that this conviction is often both compelling and permanent. Moreover, someone who has undergone hormone therapy cannot easily reverse the effects of such therapy. For example, a male-to-female on hormone therapy will take both female hormones and male hormone blockers. The former will result in the development of secondary female sexual characteristics - softer skin, rounded hips, breasts - while the latter will reduce male sexual functioning - drastically lowering sperm count and reducing penis size. However, neither will eliminate the male secondary characteristics that have already developed. That can only be done surgically. And the female secondary characteristics produced by hormone therapy cannot be reversed by simply stopping the dosages, or even by reintroducing make hormones. They can only be reversed surgically.

    This is why doctors cannot prescribe hormones without certification that the patient has been in preliminary transition (living full time as the identified gender) for at least three months. And we haven't even talked about SRS.

    I mention all of this to show that for at least some transgendered people, the notion of their gender dysphoria being some kind of temporary condition is ludicrous. And thus your hypothetical fails.

    You may want to watch the 20/20 piece that I linked in an earlier post in this thread for an unusual (at this time) example of how compelling this drive can be, even in a young person.
     
  5. MLM

    MLM Banned for trolling

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    That's it is based on a situation that isn't true (that there is a way to switch the feelings off) is what made my hypothetical a hypothetical. You understand what hypothetical is, right? I was drawing attention to the inadequacies and shortcuts taken in modern gender theory to arrive at conclusions that are politically expedient for gaining rights and protections for trans people but not scientifically demonstrated or theoretically sound. It's like arguing that black people should have rights because they're made of candy.

    From what I understand about the therapy involved, it's an important part of the process that screens out people who aren't serious or *are* just mentally ill. It's not as if there actually is a mechanism for determining who is a man or woman "in their heart" other than their apparent distress over the matter; it's longevity and intensity. Because the cause is not known we can't truly say that they are "born that way" or that becoming another gender would make them their "real" self. This stuff about gender separate from biology or physical reality, with it's ineffability and power to control our personality and cause distress when imbalanced, seems like an updated version of the four humors.

    I think we've reached a stage were we can politically argue that even without knowing the true nature and origin of their distress, we can still support trans people in doing whatever it is they need to do to be happy and healthy. We can also say that it's not a problem for someone of one sex to do whatever they can to become as much another sex as possible without creating a new system of gender mysticism.
     
  6. Tiradentes

    Tiradentes New Member

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    You're used the right word there. It seems that the main defense of transgenderism here is that gender is an ineffable, mystical essence, and that trying to understand or normalize it medically is something monstrous. It's a bit funny because that same idea about the nature of gender is promoted by opponents of transsexualism.

    It's also strange that transitioning to a different gender is talked about as if only one person were affected. In reality, their entire social environment has to change to accommodate this person. The government, friends, family, employers, and lovers are expected to make this transition with them, and when they can't it's considered an act of hate.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    How so? Because they have to acknowledge that men exist, and that women exist? Didn't they already know that? A person states the gender that he/she identifies with, and society uses the rules that they already have for that gender. Where's the problem?
     
  8. Tiradentes

    Tiradentes New Member

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    Because for those who aren't autistic interacting with others doesn't mean that you just look up a list of rules for each situation and follow them.
     
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Erm...don't most people know how to deal with men, or how to deal with women? Those are the people that society is made up of.
     
  10. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Absolutely. And that renders your hypothetical irrelevant.

    Let's take this from the outermost layer inward. Government need do nothing other than change records to accommodate the new identity - no different than when a woman marries and changes her last name, or someone decides for whatever reason to change their name (old joke: A fellow appears before a judge and says he wants to legally change his name. The judge asks, "What's your name now?" The fellow answers, "Joe Schitz." The judge says, "Well, I can certainly understand why you want to change it! What do you want to change it to?" The fellow answers, "Pete Schitz; I'm tired of people saying, 'Hello, Joe, whaddaya know?").

    Employers need only change their records (and maybe a desk or office nameplate) and extend the normal protections against harassment. Considering the scope of harassment protections currently offered, that simply means letting the appropriate person in HR know.

    Family members - yes, that's an adjustment. And the longer a relationship has gone on with the transgendered person keeping the secret, the harder it probably is to accept. And how well the family members adapt and accept is a measure of the quality of the relationship. But, you know, I suspect that if the transgendered person keeps it inside, it's worse for the family. Because having to deny one's nature to oneself is painful and demeaning, and that can't help but poison the relationship.
     
  11. edamame

    edamame Contributor Contributor

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    Hi, I think I can understand what you are saying, but what you are giving are hypotheticals -- hypotheticals based on situations that aren't even true. The current gender theory we have now is what is working -- right now -- and if you feel there are shortcomings that's fine, but it makes no sense to tear it down by putting it against situations that do not exist or do not yet exist.

    I don't know how you would scientifically or empirically breakdown "identity" anyway. If a person is biologically male but identifies as female -- they are already showing it is separate. If you still think identity should reflect "physical reality" then you'd conclude that the person is ill which is dangerous.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2014
  12. MLM

    MLM Banned for trolling

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    See, that's what I mean. The theory requires it to be metaphysical in nature because if it is based in biology it can potentially be construed by political opponents as deviant. Ergo, we must believe in magic or be bad.

    Or admit the theory is constructed on the wrong basis.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  13. edamame

    edamame Contributor Contributor

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    I think what i'm asking is what basis do you believe it is then if you are so sure the metaphysical one is the wrong one? I don't think self-image and how people view themselves are "magic." You've given hypotheticals but not real-world situations to dismiss the current gender theory -- which then, isn't really a negation at all. You're also not offering an alternative.
     
  14. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    OK, I'm really confused about 'gender theory' and the like. See, I'm more of a 'I'm cool with who you are, and whatever you want to do so long as you're not hurting yourself or others.'

    So I don't really get the 'gender theory'. Is it really this difficult to accept people for who they are? I don't see gay people or transgendered people. I just see people.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
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  15. Bryan Romer

    Bryan Romer Contributor Contributor

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    Setting aside gender/sex for a moment, isn't our entire identity, who we are, simply what we think it is? If all of a person's identity records were kept in a building and it burned down leaving no duplicates, does that person's identity cease to exist just because he or she couldn't prove it? Would anyone accept a letter from the government saying "Since we have lost your identity records, we have assigned you the new identity of John Doe, a plumber from Latvia"?
     
  16. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Hmmm...sounds like an interesting idea for a futuristic dystopian thriller.
     
  17. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    I would read that story, it sounds epic and intriguing.
     
  18. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    But it wouldn't do for the building to have been burned down. "Our records have been hacked, the files corrupted. A random identity generator has issued you the following..."

    (hurriedly scribbling)
     
  19. Bryan Romer

    Bryan Romer Contributor Contributor

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    Aargh! I gave away the plot to my next best seller. Blast! :(
     
  20. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    First rule of writing. Never give away plots that you want to write later on the internet. ;)
     
  21. edamame

    edamame Contributor Contributor

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    I agree with just accepting people for themselves, but it sometimes helps to have terms to explain who you are or what you're looking for. It also helps you organize individuals with similar struggles and foster activism. What's not good is using a label to dismiss certain people.
     

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